Saw an interesting GT3 at the track today...
08-04-2008, 10:58 PM
#31
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the techquipment bar is nothing more then a harness bar that offers the half cage "look" for the street.
the clubsport cage is what he should have installed.
To be serious enough to remove the sunroof and only track the car, he should have the clubsport cage, although he probably dosnt want or need it.
It is cheaper in the long run to buy a cup car then to convert a street car to cup specs. Even if you sell off all the street parts.
Besides, the resale of a cup compared to a street tore down to cup specs is point enough. The molested street car resale is always well below par.
This car is not brought all the way to cup specs... it only has a handful of cup type parts which is all the owner probably wanted.
the clubsport cage is what he should have installed.
To be serious enough to remove the sunroof and only track the car, he should have the clubsport cage, although he probably dosnt want or need it.
It is cheaper in the long run to buy a cup car then to convert a street car to cup specs. Even if you sell off all the street parts.
Besides, the resale of a cup compared to a street tore down to cup specs is point enough. The molested street car resale is always well below par.
This car is not brought all the way to cup specs... it only has a handful of cup type parts which is all the owner probably wanted.
08-04-2008, 11:34 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
His car has a bigger wing, wider front and rear end, better front aero, and a 3.8 when compared to a Cup. It seems his car is closer now to an FIA GT3 Cup S race car than a mere Cup spec car.
Edit: never mind, I know there are two crazy modified GT3s on the board, I think I'm talking about one and you're talking about the other.
Edit: never mind, I know there are two crazy modified GT3s on the board, I think I'm talking about one and you're talking about the other.
I've been transported to an alternate Universe...
08-05-2008, 12:37 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Tongue in cheek of course. Cups are crazy.
However, when you hear people like NJ-GT and others start musing about dream suspensions you get the impression that most would want to go beyond cup stuff. The cup has the power, it has the weight, but aero and suspension are limited because they are after all, spec racers. If you were to build from the ground up with a GT3, you could do better in these areas by using more RSR or Cup S parts. At least that's the impression I get.
However, when you hear people like NJ-GT and others start musing about dream suspensions you get the impression that most would want to go beyond cup stuff. The cup has the power, it has the weight, but aero and suspension are limited because they are after all, spec racers. If you were to build from the ground up with a GT3, you could do better in these areas by using more RSR or Cup S parts. At least that's the impression I get.
08-05-2008, 12:41 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
I wouldn't be too hard on this guy. I think a lot of people look to a GT3 to be a race car for the street. It's a little lacking from this viewpoint in stock form so the answer is mod it. Many on this board have done so successfully. Sure this guy is using 19s, has a weird sunroof foam thing, and uses a te bar, but he's still doing better than a lot of people who invest in perfauxmance. If he didn't trailer the car I'd even excuse him for the TE bar, but yeah, if he's trailering he should have better safety.
Last edited by Yargk; 08-05-2008 at 10:35 AM.
08-05-2008, 03:39 AM
#35
wow, a few of you here really should take a breath.... the pinnacle was someone's implication that the t-equip bar is no better than stringing a wet noodle around your interior. chill.
btw, my 2 cents, the pad on the inside of the roof could be to prevent dents from errant helmet thumps?
btw, my 2 cents, the pad on the inside of the roof could be to prevent dents from errant helmet thumps?
08-05-2008, 04:48 AM
#36
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Some of us take safety more seriously.
08-05-2008, 10:41 AM
#37
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What is the line exactly? Is this car bad JUST because of the TE bar or because it doesn't have a cage? I'm actually curious of what the general opinion is.
If I recall correctly a bunch of GT3 owners don't have cages because they use the car on the street as well. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, but of course there's no excuse for getting a TE bar when a proper roll bar or half cage could be installed.
If I recall correctly a bunch of GT3 owners don't have cages because they use the car on the street as well. This seems perfectly reasonable to me, but of course there's no excuse for getting a TE bar when a proper roll bar or half cage could be installed.
08-05-2008, 02:20 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Lets be serious here. Do we even know if he's racing the car?
If its strictly a DE car again the TE bar offers a considerable amount more protection then none at a third of the cost of a proper half cage. Honestly how many DE cars have you seen/heard of roll hard enough to sheer the bolts on the TE bar?
With ~22,000 lbs of force needed to sheer one bolt you'd need over 7 g's to break them. Again, i'm no physicists but at a DE i think producing 7 g's in a roll is pretty unlikely.
If its strictly a DE car again the TE bar offers a considerable amount more protection then none at a third of the cost of a proper half cage. Honestly how many DE cars have you seen/heard of roll hard enough to sheer the bolts on the TE bar?
With ~22,000 lbs of force needed to sheer one bolt you'd need over 7 g's to break them. Again, i'm no physicists but at a DE i think producing 7 g's in a roll is pretty unlikely.
08-06-2008, 12:51 AM
#39
GT3 player par excellence
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i think there are some confusion here.
a das bar, gmg bar, TE bar are all good and dandy for DE. it's your life and you get to pick how to play it. and some of you who haven't been hit on track really have no clue what it is about. i have a car fully destroyed at WS and one on the fwy at very insane speed (i was a fking idiot i know, on the street no less).
i KNOW WHAT A HIT IS... now AFTER you totaled one of your toys, then we can talk.
if you have a street GT3 with full interior than any of the above is pretty good. better than nothing.
if you decide to take out your interior like the subject car. the question is why. NO ONE should or want to take out their interior period. the ONLY reason to do so is to reduce wt. that 100lbs of reduction would buy you 1 second tops. a DE'er doesn't and shouldn't give a rat's *** about a fraction of a second. if you do, i rather not drive with you b/c you are a major disaster waiting to happen on track if you are fighting that hard just for DE.
thus the logic goes you rip up a perfectly nice car to reduce wt for reduced lap time. so you are fighting for that last second or 1/10 or 1/100 of a second. you ARE taking chances. you NEED a cage. otherwise i see no reason of removing all that wt... the only thing wrong with the subject at hand is the LOGIC, not the equipment.
taking interior out of GT3 without fullly prepping is like much the same as putting full leather interior into a cup car with AC.
a das bar, gmg bar, TE bar are all good and dandy for DE. it's your life and you get to pick how to play it. and some of you who haven't been hit on track really have no clue what it is about. i have a car fully destroyed at WS and one on the fwy at very insane speed (i was a fking idiot i know, on the street no less).
i KNOW WHAT A HIT IS... now AFTER you totaled one of your toys, then we can talk.
if you have a street GT3 with full interior than any of the above is pretty good. better than nothing.
if you decide to take out your interior like the subject car. the question is why. NO ONE should or want to take out their interior period. the ONLY reason to do so is to reduce wt. that 100lbs of reduction would buy you 1 second tops. a DE'er doesn't and shouldn't give a rat's *** about a fraction of a second. if you do, i rather not drive with you b/c you are a major disaster waiting to happen on track if you are fighting that hard just for DE.
thus the logic goes you rip up a perfectly nice car to reduce wt for reduced lap time. so you are fighting for that last second or 1/10 or 1/100 of a second. you ARE taking chances. you NEED a cage. otherwise i see no reason of removing all that wt... the only thing wrong with the subject at hand is the LOGIC, not the equipment.
taking interior out of GT3 without fullly prepping is like much the same as putting full leather interior into a cup car with AC.
08-06-2008, 09:53 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
That's what I figured and that makes sense.
Now how do good half cages on a modern car compare to full cages?
The reason I ask is that I get the impression you care about the last second and race with NCRC despite the full interior
and I think you have a roll bar from TC Design, not a full cage.
BTW let's just say I know what you're talking about when it comes to actual crashes.... and I'm going to have Tony do a full cage on the 930.
Now how do good half cages on a modern car compare to full cages?
The reason I ask is that I get the impression you care about the last second and race with NCRC despite the full interior
and I think you have a roll bar from TC Design, not a full cage.BTW let's just say I know what you're talking about when it comes to actual crashes.... and I'm going to have Tony do a full cage on the 930.
08-06-2008, 10:16 PM
#41
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Now how do good half cages on a modern car compare to full cages?
The reason I ask is that I get the impression you care about the last second and race with NCRC despite the full interior
and I think you have a roll bar from TC Design, not a full cage.BTW let's just say I know what you're talking about when it comes to actual crashes.... and I'm going to have Tony do a full cage on the 930.
i dont have a full interior, i have a FULL LEATHER INTERIOR. i dont drive ghetto cars.
LOL, you posed some very thoughtful and serious questions. i have thought about that on and off. i have totalled a car on track. it was a hard hit but i wansn't hurt, good luck there. i had another close call when someone flew into me and stopped about 1" short of my front left fender and i moved my car to about 1" from the wall at T4 LS. so i know **** happens.
but to answer your Q.
a roll bar is just that, a roll bar. full cage is safer.
if you watch me more at NCRC you will notice i usually concede a corner if my "opponent" (my vocabulary needs help, dont have better word for that) is remotely close, i let him by. now i didn't let the cup car by at the last race, b/c you can tell he's a newbie. i cannot figure why he failed to pass me for 8 laps on the front straight. i stayed inside (an inferior line) to help him by. (i just want he to pass me, but i dont want to lose sight of him, otherwise i would have applied brakes or moved to outside of front straight before T1)... believe it or not, i actually TRIED to let him by, but he wont take the apex....
if i drove more than 9/10 i would have been doing 2:00 at TH. i have spun maybe 3x in the last 3 years ;-) no, i am not that good. i just drive very conservatively. now if i spin as much as other black sheeps (haaha), then you will see a cage in my car in 2009.
btw, after you watch POC, PRC, PCA, NASA, SCCA racing, you will realized we are not really racing in NCRC or CFRA. it's more glorified time trial really. i mean some of us actually wave ppl by DURING the race! there's usually one other car near me, not 6-10.
my car is a street car with some safety mods. the so called racing is NOT racing. if i called that racing, i would be laughed out of RL.
i have been debating of buying a cup or cage my car. but so far i have not been able to convince the COO why i need a gas guzzling diesel truck and a trailer.....
and all the black sheep crew are pushing me to get a race car... it aint easy being mooty!
with regard to your 930, the best is to get cage. make a trip to TH b/c all of us will be there. 4 large, early apex and karlooz all sport full TCD cages. you can see those side by side with 171mph and my car (with roll bar). you have to make some sacrifices when you cage a car. so the Q is what is the 930? a street car, a track car, a race car.... come up and we all plan to have dinner (it's rare i stay overnight !!!) and we can shoot a lot of breeze (is that the right expression?)
08-06-2008, 11:02 PM
#42
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We all decide how risk is tolerable. This can conscious or unconscious. You do this every time you step out the door.
The TE bar is a joke. Your GT3 is capable of very high speeds. I've spoken to some of us who are braking from 135+ mph at the end of the straight at Thunderhill. Hit oil or suffer brake failure and you will impact the hill will very high energy. The entry speed to T8 at Thunderhill is often 100 to 105 mph. Every year someone climbs the hill after the turn when they screw it up. I've read data showing that car crashes at even 25 mph can expose the occupant to 100 g's.
I am an ER physician. I've seen the results of horrible of accidents. They don't have to be high speed to result in major injuries. I've seen many rollovers at less than freeway speeds crush the roof and A pillars of cars. A roll bar won't help you here.
A few years ago, the track community in CA suffered 3 deaths. One at TH and two at BW. Two of the deaths were at non-race events.
Some of you guys think that DE's are not as dangerous as racing. Look down at you speedometer some time. I did when I went sideways cresting the hill after T1 at LS going 120 + mph. I was a rookie and thank goodness for PSM in my 996.
What we do is potentially very dangerous. Don't kid yourself.
The TE bar is a joke. Your GT3 is capable of very high speeds. I've spoken to some of us who are braking from 135+ mph at the end of the straight at Thunderhill. Hit oil or suffer brake failure and you will impact the hill will very high energy. The entry speed to T8 at Thunderhill is often 100 to 105 mph. Every year someone climbs the hill after the turn when they screw it up. I've read data showing that car crashes at even 25 mph can expose the occupant to 100 g's.
I am an ER physician. I've seen the results of horrible of accidents. They don't have to be high speed to result in major injuries. I've seen many rollovers at less than freeway speeds crush the roof and A pillars of cars. A roll bar won't help you here.
A few years ago, the track community in CA suffered 3 deaths. One at TH and two at BW. Two of the deaths were at non-race events.
Some of you guys think that DE's are not as dangerous as racing. Look down at you speedometer some time. I did when I went sideways cresting the hill after T1 at LS going 120 + mph. I was a rookie and thank goodness for PSM in my 996.
What we do is potentially very dangerous. Don't kid yourself.
08-06-2008, 11:48 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
We all decide how risk is tolerable. This can conscious or unconscious. You do this every time you step out the door.
The TE bar is a joke. Your GT3 is capable of very high speeds. I've spoken to some of us who are braking from 135+ mph at the end of the straight at Thunderhill. Hit oil or suffer brake failure and you will impact the hill will very high energy. The entry speed to T8 at Thunderhill is often 100 to 105 mph. Every year someone climbs the hill after the turn when they screw it up. I've read data showing that car crashes at even 25 mph can expose the occupant to 100 g's.
The TE bar is a joke. Your GT3 is capable of very high speeds. I've spoken to some of us who are braking from 135+ mph at the end of the straight at Thunderhill. Hit oil or suffer brake failure and you will impact the hill will very high energy. The entry speed to T8 at Thunderhill is often 100 to 105 mph. Every year someone climbs the hill after the turn when they screw it up. I've read data showing that car crashes at even 25 mph can expose the occupant to 100 g's.
A few years ago, the track community in CA suffered 3 deaths. One at TH and two at BW. Two of the deaths were at non-race events.
Some of you guys think that DE's are not as dangerous as racing. Look down at you speedometer some time. I did when I went sideways cresting the hill after T1 at LS going 120 + mph. I was a rookie and thank goodness for PSM in my 996.
Some of you guys think that DE's are not as dangerous as racing. Look down at you speedometer some time. I did when I went sideways cresting the hill after T1 at LS going 120 + mph. I was a rookie and thank goodness for PSM in my 996.
I whole heartily agree. However, its always going to be a compromise. Once you fully commit to a proper cage your car becomes extremely dangerous on the street unless you want to wear a helmet on the street. Remember DE's were instituted as a means for speed junkies to arrive and drive at speeds frowned upon by city officials in a safer more controlled environment. That's why you have to wait for a wave to pass and drive with an instructor your first couple outings. And honestly the risk is always going to be how you choose to drive.
08-07-2008, 01:06 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
Colby,
For 100g's just do the math.
25 mph is about 36.66 feet per second, let's even round down and call this 36 feet per second.
One g is 32 feet per second per second (no typo, it's acceleration, not a velocity, so it's units are distance/(timeXtime) ) so 100 g's is 3200 feet per second per second.
So to slow down from 36 feet per second it takes .01125 seconds (=36/3200).
In this time you travel 18 X .01125 = .2025 feet because at the end of the deceleration you're going 0 feet per second and you started at 36 so 18 is the average speed for the .01125 seconds.
So if you stop from 25 mph in .2025 feet = 2.43 inches you will experience 100g's (and you could die). This is why you try not to hit things that are solid and also why we have crumple zones.
You haven't even done your first DE so the TE bar is probably ok. I also totally understand why you wouldn't want a full cage, however below is some food for thought about why a custom roll bar might be better than a TE bar. This is just in case you're interested in a compromise between the TE bar and a cage.
If you look through your windshield and slowly scan your eyes right until you see something that is metal, this is your right a-pillar. The TE bar runs near the b-pillar. I got a quote from TCD for a full cage that was less than 3x the cost of a TE bar so I can't imagine that a custom roll bar is much more expensive than a TE bar (maybe be less than 2x). The custom roll bar would be better than the TE bar because of better mounting, thicker tubing and more crossing support. Finally since it's a custom job the loop can be fabbed closer to your sunroofless roof (te bar designed to work with sunroof cars too I think) so that if the a-pillar collapses you'll have more room by being supported by the front of the car/dash and the b-pillar/(higher)roll bar. Make sense?
For 100g's just do the math.
25 mph is about 36.66 feet per second, let's even round down and call this 36 feet per second.
One g is 32 feet per second per second (no typo, it's acceleration, not a velocity, so it's units are distance/(timeXtime) ) so 100 g's is 3200 feet per second per second.
So to slow down from 36 feet per second it takes .01125 seconds (=36/3200).
In this time you travel 18 X .01125 = .2025 feet because at the end of the deceleration you're going 0 feet per second and you started at 36 so 18 is the average speed for the .01125 seconds.
So if you stop from 25 mph in .2025 feet = 2.43 inches you will experience 100g's (and you could die). This is why you try not to hit things that are solid and also why we have crumple zones.
You haven't even done your first DE so the TE bar is probably ok. I also totally understand why you wouldn't want a full cage, however below is some food for thought about why a custom roll bar might be better than a TE bar. This is just in case you're interested in a compromise between the TE bar and a cage.
If you look through your windshield and slowly scan your eyes right until you see something that is metal, this is your right a-pillar. The TE bar runs near the b-pillar. I got a quote from TCD for a full cage that was less than 3x the cost of a TE bar so I can't imagine that a custom roll bar is much more expensive than a TE bar (maybe be less than 2x). The custom roll bar would be better than the TE bar because of better mounting, thicker tubing and more crossing support. Finally since it's a custom job the loop can be fabbed closer to your sunroofless roof (te bar designed to work with sunroof cars too I think) so that if the a-pillar collapses you'll have more room by being supported by the front of the car/dash and the b-pillar/(higher)roll bar. Make sense?
08-07-2008, 01:13 AM
#45
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Crashes are not always of your own doing.