G3 RS Track Report
05-07-2007, 09:57 AM
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G3 RS Track Report
GT3 RS Track Day Report
After three days of perfect weather at Calabogie (www.calabogiemotorsports.com) I have a better appreciation of the car.
The first thing which became evident is that Porsche has civilized the 997 GT3 (either version) making it more versatile. If he 996GT3 was a track car you could drive on the street, the 997 GT3 and GT3RS are road cars you can drive on the track. In this context the mandatory sun roof starts to make sense.
Calabogie is a very demanding circuit. There are 20 corners, many with blind apexes. There are some painfully sloooooow corners which demand patience and a car that does not understeer. If you care to look at a track map, Big Rock, Beak, Temptation and the entire Quarry complex Watts Up, Wicked, and Wilson come to mind.
My RS is totally stock and “as delivered” with one exception. Thinking that the new car would be similar to my old one, I softened the rear bar one hole. Mistake!
At moderate speed – say the way an intermediate driver would go, the car handles nicely. When you press on however, the car plows like an ice-breaker. There were three 997 GT3’s in the Red run group and all of us had the problem. Racerron (RS) came over and asked “does your car understeer like a pig? “Uh yeah, it does”. Apex Late with a GT3 and a track alignment from Fiorano gave the same response.
The second discovery: At Calabogie, the Michelin Cup tire works far better than the Pirelli Corsa. This is odd since both are the OEM tires for the car and Porsche normally specs tires which are quite similar in performance. Perhaps elsewhere but not at this track. I switched to the Cups and enjoyed a lot more grip but still far too much “push”. This may be unique to Calabogie. The track surface is smooth and easy of tires. In fact none of us had rubber skid marks on the body in spite of all the cars running R compound tires! Amazing, I have never seen this before.
By the way, the 19 inch OEM tires work well in the wet but certainly give up dry grip to the original 18 inch Cup and Corsa tires. The extra grooves in the new tires extract a price in the dry.
How does it compare to the 996GT3? Well, the older car with a track alignment and Michelin Cups will show its heels to the new model at THIS track. Once we get the handling sorted out, I think the reverse will be true. Sorting out the handling may be a bit tricky though.
Ron had a compromise set up on his car – neg 1.5 in front. He fiddled his sway bars at the track and set the front one from full soft and the rear full stiff. Result? Less understeer but still, too much push. This makes us wonder if the factory uses different springs, sway bars and or shock calibration (electronics now) for North American cars. No European test mentioned the push we all experienced. Is the push unique to Calabogie?
The third discovery: Pushing the firm button on the PASM did not improve the handling at this track. In fact the car went better in the normal mode. All three of us agreed on this.
Fourth – turning off traction control mitigated the push somewhat. I wonder if the different calibration of the limited slip differential combined with TC are part of the understeer equation? With TC off, I could throttle steer the car more easily but the tires took a beating!
Tire pressure monitoring – seemed like a good idea and it does allow you to see the pressure increase as the tires get warm. On the other hand with the correct cold pressures, the car insisted that I had flat tires or, in lesser instances, I was told to “add air”. This was fairly predictable and not a major nuisance. On the other hand the readings are inaccurate (on all three cars) by a couple of pounds or more. I could live with that except that the inaccuracy varies – if it was a constant offset, I could compensate. But, it wasn’t.
Fifth discovery – TPMS can be turned off by the dealer and I will get it done. I will also find myself a set of 18 inch track wheels, save the cost of the TPMS sensors ($300 Canadian each) and fit the old Michelin Cup tires.
The brakes were excellent. Calabogie is tough on brakes and after three days I had no issues except a slighty softer pedal and a bit longer throw. A change to Motul 600 will cure that since the factory fill is not up to track.
The next track event is in about two weeks and I will report on how it behaves at our home track.
Best,
After three days of perfect weather at Calabogie (www.calabogiemotorsports.com) I have a better appreciation of the car.
The first thing which became evident is that Porsche has civilized the 997 GT3 (either version) making it more versatile. If he 996GT3 was a track car you could drive on the street, the 997 GT3 and GT3RS are road cars you can drive on the track. In this context the mandatory sun roof starts to make sense.
Calabogie is a very demanding circuit. There are 20 corners, many with blind apexes. There are some painfully sloooooow corners which demand patience and a car that does not understeer. If you care to look at a track map, Big Rock, Beak, Temptation and the entire Quarry complex Watts Up, Wicked, and Wilson come to mind.
My RS is totally stock and “as delivered” with one exception. Thinking that the new car would be similar to my old one, I softened the rear bar one hole. Mistake!
At moderate speed – say the way an intermediate driver would go, the car handles nicely. When you press on however, the car plows like an ice-breaker. There were three 997 GT3’s in the Red run group and all of us had the problem. Racerron (RS) came over and asked “does your car understeer like a pig? “Uh yeah, it does”. Apex Late with a GT3 and a track alignment from Fiorano gave the same response.
The second discovery: At Calabogie, the Michelin Cup tire works far better than the Pirelli Corsa. This is odd since both are the OEM tires for the car and Porsche normally specs tires which are quite similar in performance. Perhaps elsewhere but not at this track. I switched to the Cups and enjoyed a lot more grip but still far too much “push”. This may be unique to Calabogie. The track surface is smooth and easy of tires. In fact none of us had rubber skid marks on the body in spite of all the cars running R compound tires! Amazing, I have never seen this before.
By the way, the 19 inch OEM tires work well in the wet but certainly give up dry grip to the original 18 inch Cup and Corsa tires. The extra grooves in the new tires extract a price in the dry.
How does it compare to the 996GT3? Well, the older car with a track alignment and Michelin Cups will show its heels to the new model at THIS track. Once we get the handling sorted out, I think the reverse will be true. Sorting out the handling may be a bit tricky though.
Ron had a compromise set up on his car – neg 1.5 in front. He fiddled his sway bars at the track and set the front one from full soft and the rear full stiff. Result? Less understeer but still, too much push. This makes us wonder if the factory uses different springs, sway bars and or shock calibration (electronics now) for North American cars. No European test mentioned the push we all experienced. Is the push unique to Calabogie?
The third discovery: Pushing the firm button on the PASM did not improve the handling at this track. In fact the car went better in the normal mode. All three of us agreed on this.
Fourth – turning off traction control mitigated the push somewhat. I wonder if the different calibration of the limited slip differential combined with TC are part of the understeer equation? With TC off, I could throttle steer the car more easily but the tires took a beating!
Tire pressure monitoring – seemed like a good idea and it does allow you to see the pressure increase as the tires get warm. On the other hand with the correct cold pressures, the car insisted that I had flat tires or, in lesser instances, I was told to “add air”. This was fairly predictable and not a major nuisance. On the other hand the readings are inaccurate (on all three cars) by a couple of pounds or more. I could live with that except that the inaccuracy varies – if it was a constant offset, I could compensate. But, it wasn’t.
Fifth discovery – TPMS can be turned off by the dealer and I will get it done. I will also find myself a set of 18 inch track wheels, save the cost of the TPMS sensors ($300 Canadian each) and fit the old Michelin Cup tires.
The brakes were excellent. Calabogie is tough on brakes and after three days I had no issues except a slighty softer pedal and a bit longer throw. A change to Motul 600 will cure that since the factory fill is not up to track.
The next track event is in about two weeks and I will report on how it behaves at our home track.
Best,
05-07-2007, 11:40 AM
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Bob, that is interesting. Last weekend, I was at Moroso (very hot) and noticed the car had a little oversteer. Of course, I have a full track alignment, lowered and corner balanced. And if you've ever been to Moroso, you will know there isn't much traction.
I haven't tried TC off yet because Moroso is also very dangerous if you have an off. I will try it off next weekend at Sebring.
I think the spring rates are a little low for track usage though.
I haven't tried TC off yet because Moroso is also very dangerous if you have an off. I will try it off next weekend at Sebring.
I think the spring rates are a little low for track usage though.
05-07-2007, 11:45 AM
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Mitch - I had no understeer issues in the rain and I was very pleased with the handling. On the polished surface of Calabogie - things were different.
Frayed - the other cars had a track alignment, one of them lowered as well. All of us had understeer. Calabogie is tough in this respect. If you look at the map you will see decreasing radius corners and a couple which are over 180 degrees. That's where we get the push.
Regards,
Bob
Frayed - the other cars had a track alignment, one of them lowered as well. All of us had understeer. Calabogie is tough in this respect. If you look at the map you will see decreasing radius corners and a couple which are over 180 degrees. That's where we get the push.
Regards,
Bob
05-07-2007, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
GT3 RS Track Day Report
If he 996GT3 was a track car you could drive on the street, the 997 GT3 and GT3RS are road cars you can drive on the track.
If he 996GT3 was a track car you could drive on the street, the 997 GT3 and GT3RS are road cars you can drive on the track.
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
My RS is totally stock and “as delivered” with one exception. Thinking that the new car would be similar to my old one, I softened the rear bar one hole. Mistake!
why did ron only put -1.5up front?
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
The third discovery: Pushing the firm button on the PASM did not improve the handling at this track. In fact the car went better in the normal mode. All three of us agreed on this.
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
Fifth discovery – TPMS can be turned off by the dealer and I will get it done. I will also find myself a set of 18 inch track wheels, save the cost of the TPMS sensors ($300 Canadian each) and fit the old Michelin Cup tires.
IF YOU CAN GET DEALER TO TURN TPMS OFF, PLEASE PLEASE post the EXACT SEQUENCE OF MENU HE GOES THROUGH ON PIWIS.
we tried all sort of things for 6 month, nothing. you can do it on cayenne, but not on boxster or cay. perhaps 997 is different.
if you need airbag light, seat buckle, aws turned off, i got the sequence for coding.
thanx for a great report.
05-07-2007, 12:03 PM
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Bob,
Thanks for another great write up. In fact you have saved me a lot of writing to convey my impressions of the car.
I agree with EVERYTHING that Bob has said about the car.
Like Bob I was a previous owner of the 996 GT3. I use my cars mostly on the track and drive them with great enthusiasm (some would say that was an understatement). First let me say that I have never driven a car that I enjoyed more than the 996 GT3. In fact after 3 days in the new 997 that opinion has NOT changed. The 997 is a wonderful street car and it's a pleasure to drive TO any track (at which point you should change cars and jump into a 996). After three days of track driving the 997 I still believe that the 996 GT3 is the best track car for the street that Porsche has ever produced.
My R&T review would read like this:
The new 997 GT3 offers its fortunate owners a driving experience that tantalizes the senses with every mile.
Translation: it sounds good, looks good and the fuzzy steering wheel makes my hands feel nice.
The new 997 GT3 is both stable and predictable
Translation: True at low speeds but when pushed stable means like a dump truck and predictable means pushes like a snowplough.
I should also note that prior to going to the track I took steps to make my car more like the 996 GT3 that I had loved so much at the track. I lowered the car almost 1 inch. I put -3 in the front with 0 toe. In the rear I was running -2.9 with reasonable toe. I ran Sport Cups because I’ve never been a fan of the Corsa tire. This set-up was very near my 996 GT3 set-up which was amazing. The only thing that I left untouched was the sway bars that I left in the stock positions. To say that the car was a pig would not have been a huge overstatement.
Let me just say that I want to be a believer. I've read all of the articles and I couldn't wait to hit the track with the new car. But as I sit hear today my belief in the 997 GT3 is shaken not yet totally broken. As Ron said to me on the weekend when you buy a GT3 you don't expect to be ordering a ton of parts to make it track worthy. As it stands now I, like my friends, don't know what I can do to the stock car to make it work well on a track. I suspect my only choice will be to get out my wallet and start buying parts to make it more of a track car. Had I known this I might not have chosen to get out of my 996 GT3. With prices the way they are in the U.S. I would surely hope that the value of that car starts to come back up. If you still have one in the garage don't part with it just yet
Thanks for another great write up. In fact you have saved me a lot of writing to convey my impressions of the car.
I agree with EVERYTHING that Bob has said about the car.
Like Bob I was a previous owner of the 996 GT3. I use my cars mostly on the track and drive them with great enthusiasm (some would say that was an understatement). First let me say that I have never driven a car that I enjoyed more than the 996 GT3. In fact after 3 days in the new 997 that opinion has NOT changed. The 997 is a wonderful street car and it's a pleasure to drive TO any track (at which point you should change cars and jump into a 996). After three days of track driving the 997 I still believe that the 996 GT3 is the best track car for the street that Porsche has ever produced.
My R&T review would read like this:
The new 997 GT3 offers its fortunate owners a driving experience that tantalizes the senses with every mile.
Translation: it sounds good, looks good and the fuzzy steering wheel makes my hands feel nice.
The new 997 GT3 is both stable and predictable
Translation: True at low speeds but when pushed stable means like a dump truck and predictable means pushes like a snowplough.
I should also note that prior to going to the track I took steps to make my car more like the 996 GT3 that I had loved so much at the track. I lowered the car almost 1 inch. I put -3 in the front with 0 toe. In the rear I was running -2.9 with reasonable toe. I ran Sport Cups because I’ve never been a fan of the Corsa tire. This set-up was very near my 996 GT3 set-up which was amazing. The only thing that I left untouched was the sway bars that I left in the stock positions. To say that the car was a pig would not have been a huge overstatement.
Let me just say that I want to be a believer. I've read all of the articles and I couldn't wait to hit the track with the new car. But as I sit hear today my belief in the 997 GT3 is shaken not yet totally broken. As Ron said to me on the weekend when you buy a GT3 you don't expect to be ordering a ton of parts to make it track worthy. As it stands now I, like my friends, don't know what I can do to the stock car to make it work well on a track. I suspect my only choice will be to get out my wallet and start buying parts to make it more of a track car. Had I known this I might not have chosen to get out of my 996 GT3. With prices the way they are in the U.S. I would surely hope that the value of that car starts to come back up. If you still have one in the garage don't part with it just yet
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05-07-2007, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Apex Late
Bob,
Thanks for another great write up. In fact you have saved me a lot of writing to convey my impressions of the car.
I agree with EVERYTHING that Bob has said about the car.
Like Bob I was a previous owner of the 996 GT3. I use my cars mostly on the track and drive them with great enthusiasm (some would say that was an understatement). First let me say that I have never driven a car that I enjoyed more than the 996 GT3. In fact after 3 days in the new 997 that opinion has NOT changed. The 997 is a wonderful street car and it's a pleasure to drive TO any track (at which point you should change cars and jump into a 996). After three days of track driving the 997 I still believe that the 996 GT3 is the best track car for the street that Porsche has ever produced.
My R&T review would read like this:
The new 997 GT3 offers its fortunate owners a driving experience that tantalizes the senses with every mile.
Translation: it sounds good, looks good and the fuzzy steering wheel makes my hands feel nice.
The new 997 GT3 is both stable and predictable
Translation: True at low speeds but when pushed stable means like a dump truck and predictable means pushes like a snowplough.
I should also note that prior to going to the track I took steps to make my car more like the 996 GT3 that I had loved so much at the track. I lowered the car almost 1 inch. I put -3 in the front with 0 toe. In the rear I was running -2.9 with reasonable toe. I ran Sport Cups because I’ve never been a fan of the Corsa tire. This set-up was very near my 996 GT3 set-up which was amazing. The only thing that I left untouched was the sway bars that I left in the stock positions. To say that the car was a pig would not have been a huge overstatement.
Let me just say that I want to be a believer. I've read all of the articles and I couldn't wait to hit the track with the new car. But as I sit hear today my belief in the 997 GT3 is shaken not yet totally broken. As Ron said to me on the weekend when you buy a GT3 you don't expect to be ordering a ton of parts to make it track worthy. As it stands now I, like my friends, don't know what I can do to the stock car to make it work well on a track. I suspect my only choice will be to get out my wallet and start buying parts to make it more of a track car. Had I known this I might not have chosen to get out of my 996 GT3. With prices the way they are in the U.S. I would surely hope that the value of that car starts to come back up. If you still have one in the garage don't part with it just yet
Thanks for another great write up. In fact you have saved me a lot of writing to convey my impressions of the car.
I agree with EVERYTHING that Bob has said about the car.
Like Bob I was a previous owner of the 996 GT3. I use my cars mostly on the track and drive them with great enthusiasm (some would say that was an understatement). First let me say that I have never driven a car that I enjoyed more than the 996 GT3. In fact after 3 days in the new 997 that opinion has NOT changed. The 997 is a wonderful street car and it's a pleasure to drive TO any track (at which point you should change cars and jump into a 996). After three days of track driving the 997 I still believe that the 996 GT3 is the best track car for the street that Porsche has ever produced.
My R&T review would read like this:
The new 997 GT3 offers its fortunate owners a driving experience that tantalizes the senses with every mile.
Translation: it sounds good, looks good and the fuzzy steering wheel makes my hands feel nice.
The new 997 GT3 is both stable and predictable
Translation: True at low speeds but when pushed stable means like a dump truck and predictable means pushes like a snowplough.
I should also note that prior to going to the track I took steps to make my car more like the 996 GT3 that I had loved so much at the track. I lowered the car almost 1 inch. I put -3 in the front with 0 toe. In the rear I was running -2.9 with reasonable toe. I ran Sport Cups because I’ve never been a fan of the Corsa tire. This set-up was very near my 996 GT3 set-up which was amazing. The only thing that I left untouched was the sway bars that I left in the stock positions. To say that the car was a pig would not have been a huge overstatement.
Let me just say that I want to be a believer. I've read all of the articles and I couldn't wait to hit the track with the new car. But as I sit hear today my belief in the 997 GT3 is shaken not yet totally broken. As Ron said to me on the weekend when you buy a GT3 you don't expect to be ordering a ton of parts to make it track worthy. As it stands now I, like my friends, don't know what I can do to the stock car to make it work well on a track. I suspect my only choice will be to get out my wallet and start buying parts to make it more of a track car. Had I known this I might not have chosen to get out of my 996 GT3. With prices the way they are in the U.S. I would surely hope that the value of that car starts to come back up. If you still have one in the garage don't part with it just yet
blunt, but right on.
i sort of come to this conclusion on my drive home from my dealer.
i subsequently track aligned it. feels better, but not quite.
will get it on track when i can get out from work end of the month.
i hope things would be a bit different by then as you early trackers provide more guidance.
05-07-2007, 12:16 PM
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thanks for the report Bob..guys if all your complaint is understeer do a more agressive alignmemnt
do same camber allaround or even more camber in the front then the rear there's alot of room to reduce understeer even starting from the "track setup"..personally i am more concerned with PASM
do same camber allaround or even more camber in the front then the rear there's alot of room to reduce understeer even starting from the "track setup"..personally i am more concerned with PASM
05-07-2007, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by krC2S
thanks for the report Bob..guys if all your complaint is understeer do a more agressive alignmemnt
do same camber allaround or even more camber in the front then the rear there's alot of room to reduce understeer even starting from the "track setup"..personally i am more concerned with PASM
do same camber allaround or even more camber in the front then the rear there's alot of room to reduce understeer even starting from the "track setup"..personally i am more concerned with PASM
I will be the first person to admit that I'm not an expert where set-up is concerned. I just drive em. Do you have this ability? I will be glad to tell you what the car is doing and if you (or anyone else out there) can help I will implement the changes this week and try them this Friday at the same track.
Here is what I have now
Front -3
Front Toe 0
Caster 8 degrees
Sway bar Stock (1 from stiff I believe)
Rear - 2.9
Rear Toe in at 10 minutes
Caster 8 degrees
Sway bar Stock (1 from stiff I believe)
Also 8 degrees of attack angle in the wing.
The car does not turn in well at speed or in slow corners. Instant understeer at turn in that it enhanced if throtle is added. From apex to exit the understeer continues with progressive throtle. Basically it understeers through the enitre corner. I had heard from others that the car gets loose and I could only get this condition with abrupt steering inputs or when I dropped out of the throtle abruptly. I would love a loose car right now.
Can someone help?
05-07-2007, 12:47 PM
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a suggestion,
front: 1/16 toe out, sway bar full soft or one from full soft. keep camber at -3deg.
rear: -2.3deg camber and sway bar at full stiff.
based on the sway bar settings you have the car would understeer. too stiff in the front works against the extra camber. softer in the front would give you more front grip.
front: 1/16 toe out, sway bar full soft or one from full soft. keep camber at -3deg.
rear: -2.3deg camber and sway bar at full stiff.
based on the sway bar settings you have the car would understeer. too stiff in the front works against the extra camber. softer in the front would give you more front grip.
05-07-2007, 01:17 PM
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Interesting reports and I take them to heart given the collective experience from those posting here (Bob, Moots, Apex, RacerRon), and b/c every person came out of a 996 GT3 that was tracked hard. My experience so far is limited to the street as my first track weekend is still a two weeks away.
Seems the facory has hamstrung these cars with wicked understeer when pushed, and limited ability to dial it out with the factory sway bars. I *completely* understand the frustration given the understeer I had in my E36 before I got things setup right.
Isn't the fix simple: a bigger rear bar? I'm hoping the aftermarket steps up to the plate and gets a better rear bar setup.
Interesting that we had so many reports of the 997 GT3/RS being loose (here and in the mags), with these reports being the opposite.
Seems the facory has hamstrung these cars with wicked understeer when pushed, and limited ability to dial it out with the factory sway bars. I *completely* understand the frustration given the understeer I had in my E36 before I got things setup right.
Isn't the fix simple: a bigger rear bar? I'm hoping the aftermarket steps up to the plate and gets a better rear bar setup.
Interesting that we had so many reports of the 997 GT3/RS being loose (here and in the mags), with these reports being the opposite.
05-07-2007, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by doc2s
a suggestion,
front: 1/16 toe out, sway bar full soft or one from full soft. keep camber at -3deg.
rear: -2.3deg camber and sway bar at full stiff.
based on the sway bar settings you have the car would understeer. too stiff in the front works against the extra camber. softer in the front would give you more front grip.
front: 1/16 toe out, sway bar full soft or one from full soft. keep camber at -3deg.
rear: -2.3deg camber and sway bar at full stiff.
based on the sway bar settings you have the car would understeer. too stiff in the front works against the extra camber. softer in the front would give you more front grip.
I was thinking the same thing. BUT the sway bar settings up front are not confirmed. I was told that it was one from stiff but Ron said that when he jacked his car up he found that it was in fact one from full soft. I will report once I have it up on the lift tomorrow.
05-07-2007, 01:21 PM
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Apex, FWIW, my car came from the factory one from full soft up front just as the everyone else seems to have found. I'm betting yours is too. Leaving only one hole to try to tame the understeer.
I'd try not to get too down on what you experienced, as you are coming out of track tweaked 996 vs. largely factory 997. While a derivative from the 996 it is still a different car and will take some time to sort out.
I'd try not to get too down on what you experienced, as you are coming out of track tweaked 996 vs. largely factory 997. While a derivative from the 996 it is still a different car and will take some time to sort out.
05-07-2007, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by frayed
Apex, FWIW, my car came from the factory one from full soft up front just as the everyone else seems to have found. I'm betting yours is too. Leaving only one hole to try to tame the understeer.
I'd try not to get too down on what you experienced, as you are coming out of track tweaked 996 vs. largely factory 997. While a derivative from the 996 it is still a different car and will take some time to sort out.
I'd try not to get too down on what you experienced, as you are coming out of track tweaked 996 vs. largely factory 997. While a derivative from the 996 it is still a different car and will take some time to sort out.
As for keeping the faith. I'm doing my best and I appreciate that part of the process is working through set-up issues. My disappointment is that Porsche has not given us much to work with. It looks like the 997 will be an aftermarket dream at this point.
