RR

Ray,

All due respect - what do you think the dealers - the dealers that are trying to get this ridiculous $50K above MSRP - are going to tell you, that the "market" isn't at 40-75K? They'd shoot themselves in the foot if they told you otherwise. They are all trying to keep this ballloon floating. Again just b/c they are asking over $50k doesnt mean people are buying but they sure are trying hard to perpetuate this.

mrpc12

Over the weekend the dealer in Fremont, CA asked me if I knew anyone who was interested in an RS @ $30K over. They have one that isn't spoken for yet.

Max Power

what's offered:
148,240 + 11,860 (8%) = 160,100.

what I wanted:
123,200 + 3,070 + 8,840 + 140 = 135,250.

25K for options I would prefer not to have isn't peanuts.
I would have chosen green but I could live with the orange.

Carrera2kid

RR,
Perhaps you're right, but in my case, they know I'm not in the market for a second one. I do believe that the demand is several times the supply. New Country in Greenwich is getting three, and this is a dealership that sold 17 Carrera GT's. They could sell another ten RS's without breaking a sweat (in comparison, they deliver two Turbos/month). Even GT3's are going for $10K over (arguably a better deal than $40K upcharge for an RS).

I, for one, can't imagine anyone picking a Turbo over an RS, and I was in Fort Wayne, IN on business last week and was told by a dealer there that they had delivered a Turbo last week for $35K over list, because they didn't have any allocated and they had to buy one for a customer from a dealer in PA. $35K over for a Turbo??? Nuts in my view, but it obviously made sense to someone who JUST WANTED ONE. I'm sure somebody will let us know the fate of the $199K white RS at Rusnak...I bet they get it. This has been going on over at the Ferrari dealerships (in one way or another) for years. How else do you explain a $200K upcharge on the 599? In a word, supply/demand. Sort of two words, actually...

BTW, I don't think I have ever made any money on any car I ever sold (that's not why I buy 'em), but perhaps the real reason is that I like Porsches, and nobody has ever made money in the used Porsche market (except when they become classics like the 356 Carrera 2 or the '72 Carrera RS). If that mold is ever broken, my bet is that it will be the RS that does it. If so, maybe that is what PAG is trying to achieve. The relative value difference between an Enzo and a CGT must bother PAG, if for no other reason that it will be a long time before anyone buys a Porsche supercar without considering the massive depreciation of the CGT. That's the reason I won't buy any more Aston Martin's...drive 'em for 18 months, and lose $75K in value. Could be that PAG is looking to start corrective action now in advance of a new CGT. But who the heck knows...just idle speculation on my relatively uninformed part.
Cheers,
Ray
'05 CGT
'07 RS

RR

I would say Porsche is trying to do what you are saying. The GT IMO is a beautiful piece of machinery. I've never seen the Enzo close up but I have seen a GT and the engine compartment looks so fantastic with all those carbon fibre components. You can really see the attention to detail and it must bother Porsche that the GT is not worth as much as an ENZO when it definitely should be.

Carrera2kid

If you compare the engine compartments, the Enzo look like a kit car in comparison with the CGT. Supply/demand is the only reason for the difference in market values. Virtually everyone on this list seems to think PAG will build as many of everything as they can to maximize profits, but a slightly longer term view would hold that PAG also cares about the aftermarket, because one of the reasons that Porsche has such a strong following, with many many repeat customers, is the perception that Porsches hold up well in the aftermarket. That has been a tough sale to CGT owners in the last year (myself, alas, included), though there are signs that the CGT aftermarket situation is improving.
Still, if you think about it, the relative aftermarket values of the Enzo made it a FAR less costly purchase than the CGT, even allowing for the fact that it's MSRP was $650K, as compared with the CGT's MSRP of $440K.

If there is a one year run of RS's, my view is that the reason for that will be the CGT's aftermarket performance. Porsche has yet to prove that this 'ole dog can learn a new trick, but we shall see...
Ray

icon

ray,
it's not exactly fair to porsche to compare depreciation on a car w/ 1280* units produced (cgt) to a car w/ 400 units produced (enzo).
but it's not hard to see what you mean by cgt's market price taking a beating.
i imagine if there were only 400 cgt's produced it would be quite a different story.

*top secrect - only porsche knows for sure

do you really think demand is "several times" current supply of the RS?
or did you just mean higher?

mooty

damn, they lied to me.
i was told they had no allocation of RS. they told me that last month!
another dealership i shall go spit on.

Carrera2kid

Jeff,
As to the CGT depreciation issue, the point you make is exactly the point. Porsche made too many, Ferrari made (perhaps just barely) not enough. And an initiall $200K gap in MSRP has turned into a market value gap of somewhere between $650K (minimum) to $1.15mm (if the reports of the Eddie Griffin-crashed Enzo are to be believed). Whichever is correct, or more likely somewhere in the middle, the market value disparity is breathtaking, especially if one was one of the loyal faithful who ponied up for an original issue model. The differential is not good for the brand, and whatever is not good for the brand is not good for PAG. Ergo, the need to begin to repair the damage in the marketplace, if there is to be another CGT.

As to the demand for the RS, I do think "several times" is the right order of magnitude. I get there with the following reasoning: my dealer, as I mentioned, delivers roughly 24 Turbos/year, which is basically at the exact price point of an RS.
They also sold 17 CGT's at a far higher price point. Based on the the demand for the Turbo, and the fact that the RS is a much more involving ride than the Turbo (personal experience and opinion, though who could disagree?), I believe that there are, at least, a number of Turbo, and for that matter, GT3 buyers who would buy an RS if they could get their hands on one. Not necessarily at $50K over MSRP, but certainly at list. I believe you would count yourself in that number!I suspect that Porsche could sell 750-1,000 units in the US without breaking a sweat. In fairness, my view is influenced by the situation in Greenwich, which is not exactly representative of the country at large, but if my local dealership can sell 17 CGT's, do you doubt they could sell fifty RS's? And they have been allocated three...
As always, Jeff, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss these matters of moment with someone who is both knowledgeable and has the best avatars money could possibly buy!

Regards,
Ray
'05 CGT
'07 RS

allegretto

I don't think it is just supply and demand, but I do think S/D is the major one. Another reason? Well, first of all Ferrari has done a terrific job since the early and mid 90's as has Porsche to generate demand. Not sure what the aphrodisiac is, but it works on just about everyone. The lines of their vehicles, the exhaust note, the cache of their dealers etc. all invade your sense in a different way than just about any other maker out there. The second issue is this (and you may not agree); the Enzo can be driven, and driven reasonably fast by almost anyone (unless perhaps you're a black comedian). The C-GT requires skill to drive, and if you are not possessed of that skill, the odds are good that you will either not enjoy the car or get yourself deep into trouble. From the time you attempt to move from a stop in a C-GT you realize that this car is a handful. Definately not a car for the average poseur! And in many cases it is the poseur crowd that drives up the prices.


That has been my operative thinking too. Surely a company doing as well as Porsche could do without the short-term profits to develop a stronger long-term following. But this RS issue has got me rethinking that. It used to be that EU companies would laugh at the "quarterly-fever" that US public entities go through. Now they do it too!

Carrera2kid

But not PAG, methinks, as the only voting stock is held by the family. Even so, the company has done extremely well under Herr Wiedeking, whether you hold voting or non-voting stock. I believe he is focussed on the long term, even more so than before given the Enzo/CGT comparisons we've been talking about. And BTW, Porsche is not traded in the US because Wiedeking doesn't want/need to comply with Sarbanes/Oxley in the US.
Regards,
Ray

Nick

I am absoultely amazed that people are willing to pay a premium for a Porsche which is essentially a track car and nothing more. I personally have no doubt that this perceived "frenzy" will be short lived.

What is funny is most owners of the RS probably would do better track times in a 997TT or even a GT3. Yet people are falling all over themselves to pay substantially over sticker. The RS value will tank as soon as the next "great" Porsche" is introduced i.e. GT2 or the 997TT X whatever.

Finally, it is a mistake to classify the RS along with the CGT. The CGT is a supercar and the RS an overblown track car and not a great at that. The GT3 is close in performance and the 997TT better. The CGT to borrow a phrase will make the RS look like it was tied to a tree stump on a track. AND yet, people are shelling out money over MSRP for it. Maybe its the silly big wing?

allegretto

[QUOTE=Nick]I am absoultely amazed that people are willing to pay a premium for a Porsche which is essentially a track car and nothing more.QUOTE]

Oh, you mean like a Stradale?

Nick

[QUOTE=allegretto]What does the Stradale have to do with what the RS is?

LuisGT3

[QUOTE=Nick]Good point Nick. The RS is a way bigger/better difference from the regular 911 than the Stradale is to the regular 360.
Look up previous model Porsche RS's before you spew you Porsche hating garbage on an otherwise good thread.