Excellence Magazine's Review of 997 GT3
02-05-2007, 11:20 PM
#76
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Carrera GT
What?!
You want me to back up my posts with facts?
: )
Groan. I guess I worded that sentence poorly, but the idea is simple: if the race cars are already "heavy" what hope is there for the street cars.
I dunno. The RSR is about 2700lb (porsche.com says "approx. 1,225 kg") and the Cup is under 2500lb (approx. 1,120 kg (PCCB) or approx. 1,140 kg (Steel)) making both race cars substantially lighter than the RS basis which is meant to be a tad less flab than the normal GT3.
My point is that these race cars are bare bodies with cages, hot, noisy cabins and no compromise to the creatures occupying their innards. It's a daunting prospect to make a GT3 or RS trim down to be at the 2500lbs of the Cup.
If the race cars were 2000lb catwalk waifs, there'd be some prospect of a street car being a lithe 2500lb nymphette.
Ugh. Typing all that just brought home how difficult it would be to really trim down the coming generations of 911.
I should acknowledge that race cars carry inherent burdens of safety and the escalation of power brings consequences of bigger brakes, wheels, you name it. The discussion has been played out here many times. If you look at a light 911, everything becomes concomitantly lighter, so it might be possible to see Porsche deliver a "light weight" car with smaller, lighter engine and transaxle, smaller and lighter running gear and suspension, smaller brakes, less wheel and tyre etc. etc. Smaller body, etc.
If Porsche went "all in" they could deliver a 911 RS Lightweight again. If the RS were to become 450hp and 3400lb, the same equation could arrive in a modern RSL as a 320hp car around 2600lbs. Round figures. And I wouldn't care if they had the same price. Porsche could finally see us dissenters vote with our wallets instead of seeing the debate trivialized by controversial sunroofs.
You want me to back up my posts with facts?
: )
Groan. I guess I worded that sentence poorly, but the idea is simple: if the race cars are already "heavy" what hope is there for the street cars.
I dunno. The RSR is about 2700lb (porsche.com says "approx. 1,225 kg") and the Cup is under 2500lb (approx. 1,120 kg (PCCB) or approx. 1,140 kg (Steel)) making both race cars substantially lighter than the RS basis which is meant to be a tad less flab than the normal GT3.
My point is that these race cars are bare bodies with cages, hot, noisy cabins and no compromise to the creatures occupying their innards. It's a daunting prospect to make a GT3 or RS trim down to be at the 2500lbs of the Cup.
If the race cars were 2000lb catwalk waifs, there'd be some prospect of a street car being a lithe 2500lb nymphette.
Ugh. Typing all that just brought home how difficult it would be to really trim down the coming generations of 911.
I should acknowledge that race cars carry inherent burdens of safety and the escalation of power brings consequences of bigger brakes, wheels, you name it. The discussion has been played out here many times. If you look at a light 911, everything becomes concomitantly lighter, so it might be possible to see Porsche deliver a "light weight" car with smaller, lighter engine and transaxle, smaller and lighter running gear and suspension, smaller brakes, less wheel and tyre etc. etc. Smaller body, etc.
If Porsche went "all in" they could deliver a 911 RS Lightweight again. If the RS were to become 450hp and 3400lb, the same equation could arrive in a modern RSL as a 320hp car around 2600lbs. Round figures. And I wouldn't care if they had the same price. Porsche could finally see us dissenters vote with our wallets instead of seeing the debate trivialized by controversial sunroofs.
i remember the first time i saw the boxster in the showroom.
i was stunned by the SIZE of the car!
was expecting something more the size of a z3 and it ended up bigger than it's older brother the 993.
02-05-2007, 11:22 PM
#77
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
By "loose" I guess you're saying power-on oversteer, which roasts the surface of the tire but doesn't push heat into the core the same way load does.
Michelin suggests 8 psi gain. I typically had seen 10 psi. 26 to 36 psi driving hard.
So, back on topic w/o getting over **** on this issue, Excellence posted they started out with 31 psi and acknowledged that the tires were probably over pressured. My point is, I agree.
That is all
02-06-2007, 12:04 AM
#78
Originally Posted by icon
i gotcha!
i remember the first time i saw the boxster in the showroom.
i was stunned by the SIZE of the car!
was expecting something more the size of a z3 and it ended up bigger than it's older brother the 993.
i remember the first time i saw the boxster in the showroom.
i was stunned by the SIZE of the car!
was expecting something more the size of a z3 and it ended up bigger than it's older brother the 993.
And I made the insane -- and permanently regretted -- move of going from a '94 RS America to a '98 Box. Good grief. Much as I enjoyed the ride in the Bogsta and it redeemed itself with every drive home after a working day that stretched into the early morning -- top down, enjoying a casual 100mph on a deserted Hwy 85 ending with a movie-scene ride through the hills to home -- it could never compare to the RSA and it took me a few years until I found the logical successor to the RSA, the 993 Turbo!
Around '95-'97, Porsche showrooms were bizarre places. 993, 986 and even the odd unsold '95 928 (that probably needed just one more budget cycle to freshen up the cabin and the specs to start selling once the market went rich again in the mid to late 90's before the tech fizzle.) The 968 was still floating around as unsold or very new condition second hand examples. Prices had dropped by something like $5K from the 964 to the 993 and nobody was complaining. Test driving a stock '96 C2, it was a lot of car and gorgeous, but I was sure the 964 was more my cup of meat. The Turbo changed everything. "One day ..." I said.
It's a joke to walk into a Porsche lot dealer today with variants of the Cayenne, 996 and 997 along side the Boxster and Cayman. Imagine the clutter once they're trying to get a Panamera in the scene -- and the spy photos make it look like a huge boat. Sooner or later someone in marketing at Porsche will stroll by a Land Rover dealership and think "Gee ... they show their SUVs in context ... huh ..."
Now, where was I ... oh yeah ... that Excellence bit ... good reading ... damn, that white 996 GT3 is a stunner! : )
02-09-2007, 12:22 AM
#79
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Excellence Mag has finally uploaded the GT3 video on their website (see the "feature films" link on the left-hand side on their homepage) -- Johannes van O runs some hot laps @ Infineon Raceway (my home track) -- very impressive, both car and driver! Can't wait to get my RS there . . . .
02-09-2007, 06:24 AM
#80
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My first impressions from Sebring. First of all, the platform is much more stable than the 996. Remember, my car has been setup for the track but so was my 996. The tires are ok but lack the grip of the "real" MPSC's. I am running with the same pressures though, 25/28 cold and getting to 32/36 hot. The engine spools up quicker making downshifts easier. The car has great turn in. Porsche has gotten rid of the understeer that plagued earlier models. It is much easier to get the back end out though so be careful. I have been running with sport mode on, PASM regular and TC on.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
02-09-2007, 11:20 AM
#82
Originally Posted by mitch236
My first impressions from Sebring. First of all, the platform is much more stable than the 996. Remember, my car has been setup for the track but so was my 996. The tires are ok but lack the grip of the "real" MPSC's. I am running with the same pressures though, 25/28 cold and getting to 32/36 hot. The engine spools up quicker making downshifts easier. The car has great turn in. Porsche has gotten rid of the understeer that plagued earlier models. It is much easier to get the back end out though so be careful. I have been running with sport mode on, PASM regular and TC on.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
Sounds like you're having fun. I tend to agree that the Sport Cups in this new generation on the 997 GT3 aren't up to track work. I didn't drive much on the "old" Sport Cups, but do have a second set on the 996 GT3 now. The 996 feels like the tires are sticking more and loading up the rear suspension. The 997 feels like it's overpowering the rears no matter their temps. Again, that could just be my error.
How many miles on the odometer; what rpm are you allowing as a max; what are the rear rotor temps?
With lower pressures, you might want to be careful with those 19's around the berms. : )
02-10-2007, 02:02 AM
#83
Originally Posted by mitch236
My first impressions from Sebring. First of all, the platform is much more stable than the 996. Remember, my car has been setup for the track but so was my 996. The tires are ok but lack the grip of the "real" MPSC's. I am running with the same pressures though, 25/28 cold and getting to 32/36 hot. The engine spools up quicker making downshifts easier. The car has great turn in. Porsche has gotten rid of the understeer that plagued earlier models. It is much easier to get the back end out though so be careful. I have been running with sport mode on, PASM regular and TC on.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
02-10-2007, 02:27 AM
#84
Originally Posted by Ray G
Originally Posted by mitch236
My first impressions from Sebring. First of all, the platform is much more stable than the 996. Remember, my car has been setup for the track but so was my 996. The tires are ok but lack the grip of the "real" MPSC's. I am running with the same pressures though, 25/28 cold and getting to 32/36 hot. The engine spools up quicker making downshifts easier. The car has great turn in. Porsche has gotten rid of the understeer that plagued earlier models. It is much easier to get the back end out though so be careful. I have been running with sport mode on, PASM regular and TC on.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
I'll give more impressions tomorrow after another day out there.
All in all, this is the best car I have ever driven.
There's also the hassle factor of have the TPC complaining about low or high pressures.
02-12-2007, 09:54 AM
#85
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Well, I am going to try to give my first impression of the weekend with the GT-3. Luckily, a good friend and great driver also has a new GT-3 so we compared notes.
1. The MPSC's supplied with the car are about 1 second slower than the "real" MPSC's.
2. PASM wasn't a problem at all.
3. TC did come on but the system lets you get very loose, I was fishtailing coming out of the safety pin and TC didn't chime in at all. It did come in if I intentionally caused power on oversteer.
4. Another driver mentioned that the springs seemed too soft and I have to agree. The car is slow to set in transition. It also has too much wallow and tends to nose dive quite a bit under braking.
5. The engine spools up extremely quickly making downshifting very fast.
6. The car tends towards understeer although I still have to get the setup dialed in so it may be a function of how I set the car up. The amount of understeer is not great and most drivers like a little of understeer anyway.
7. This car is as close as you can get to a cup car while being street legal, although it needs a diet badly. I can't understand where all the weight is. It weighed 3230 with the driver's seat replaced with a Recaro. My goal is to get under 3000. I'm sure it's possible but Porsche should have that as a goal as well.
8. The brakes are great. I can't see a need for PCCB's as I never experienced fade. The effort and brake force are completely consistent. I'm sure there are advantages to PCCB's but until there is a couple of years of positive history with them, I will hold out.
9. TPC. It's good and bad. Well not really ever bad but annoying. It's great to be able to see hot pressures on the fly. I found the pressures to be low by one pound according to my Longacre guage. The problem with the system is that you can't program what pressures you think are optimal and so at track pressures you constantly get warnings about low pressures. Also having the sensors mounted in the wheel makes it very difficult to convince local tire shops to mount tires. The sensors are expensive and nobody want to damage one. I will take mine out most likely.
All in all, I had a great time because driving this car is easy. It is very forgiving. It doesn't seem to be plagued by unsavable oversteer issues as older models and I think even average drivers will give good drivers in 996 GT-3's a run. I will post some pictures.
1. The MPSC's supplied with the car are about 1 second slower than the "real" MPSC's.
2. PASM wasn't a problem at all.
3. TC did come on but the system lets you get very loose, I was fishtailing coming out of the safety pin and TC didn't chime in at all. It did come in if I intentionally caused power on oversteer.
4. Another driver mentioned that the springs seemed too soft and I have to agree. The car is slow to set in transition. It also has too much wallow and tends to nose dive quite a bit under braking.
5. The engine spools up extremely quickly making downshifting very fast.
6. The car tends towards understeer although I still have to get the setup dialed in so it may be a function of how I set the car up. The amount of understeer is not great and most drivers like a little of understeer anyway.
7. This car is as close as you can get to a cup car while being street legal, although it needs a diet badly. I can't understand where all the weight is. It weighed 3230 with the driver's seat replaced with a Recaro. My goal is to get under 3000. I'm sure it's possible but Porsche should have that as a goal as well.
8. The brakes are great. I can't see a need for PCCB's as I never experienced fade. The effort and brake force are completely consistent. I'm sure there are advantages to PCCB's but until there is a couple of years of positive history with them, I will hold out.
9. TPC. It's good and bad. Well not really ever bad but annoying. It's great to be able to see hot pressures on the fly. I found the pressures to be low by one pound according to my Longacre guage. The problem with the system is that you can't program what pressures you think are optimal and so at track pressures you constantly get warnings about low pressures. Also having the sensors mounted in the wheel makes it very difficult to convince local tire shops to mount tires. The sensors are expensive and nobody want to damage one. I will take mine out most likely.
All in all, I had a great time because driving this car is easy. It is very forgiving. It doesn't seem to be plagued by unsavable oversteer issues as older models and I think even average drivers will give good drivers in 996 GT-3's a run. I will post some pictures.
02-12-2007, 10:09 AM
#89
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8. The brakes are great. I can't see a need for PCCB's as I never experienced fade. The effort and brake force are completely consistent. I'm sure there are advantages to PCCB's but until there is a couple of years of positive history with them, I will hold out.
What advantages do you think the PCCB's might have? Is there any way to justify that expense if the car will be tracked infrequently? Does it make any sense on the street?
What advantages do you think the PCCB's might have? Is there any way to justify that expense if the car will be tracked infrequently? Does it make any sense on the street?
02-12-2007, 10:12 AM
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I had PASM set to normal. I tried "sport" mode but really didn't like it. Remember, Sebring is very bumpy.
The real advantage to PCCB's is the reduction in unsprung mass which only track drivers will notice. I don't see any advantage to street driven cars having PCCB's
The real advantage to PCCB's is the reduction in unsprung mass which only track drivers will notice. I don't see any advantage to street driven cars having PCCB's