Excellence Magazine's Review of 997 GT3
02-02-2007, 10:08 AM
#31
This article sounds like it was written by a rennlister who has it out for the new 997GT3.
I mean all the way through the article they make it seem/sound like the 997GT3 isn't much of an improvement of the 996 BUT when they compare it to a stripped out 996GT3 at the track, the heavier 997GT3 still beat it.
What would have happened if the 997GT3 was compared to a STOCK 996GT3.
The answer is it would been blown away.
Everyone here keeps comparing the 2 cars and now Excellence has done the same BUT the HUGE error that all of them make is that they are comparing a stock 997GT3 to stripped out week end racers.
How much more proof do you need that stock for stock the 997GT3 will blast away from a stock 996GT3.
Also their remarks about the 996GT3's suspension being less twitchy is ridiculous, it's the exact opposite - this is the first Ive ever heard any magazine "complain" about the suspension and then go out and beat the 996GT3's track time...come on what a joke. And the 996GT3 suspension was not stock either was it not?
When reading that article you have to keep in mind that they are not comparing it to a stock 996GT3.
I mean all the way through the article they make it seem/sound like the 997GT3 isn't much of an improvement of the 996 BUT when they compare it to a stripped out 996GT3 at the track, the heavier 997GT3 still beat it.
What would have happened if the 997GT3 was compared to a STOCK 996GT3.
The answer is it would been blown away.
Everyone here keeps comparing the 2 cars and now Excellence has done the same BUT the HUGE error that all of them make is that they are comparing a stock 997GT3 to stripped out week end racers.
How much more proof do you need that stock for stock the 997GT3 will blast away from a stock 996GT3.
Also their remarks about the 996GT3's suspension being less twitchy is ridiculous, it's the exact opposite - this is the first Ive ever heard any magazine "complain" about the suspension and then go out and beat the 996GT3's track time...come on what a joke. And the 996GT3 suspension was not stock either was it not?
When reading that article you have to keep in mind that they are not comparing it to a stock 996GT3.
02-02-2007, 10:43 AM
#32
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The author, Pete Stout, in the rennteam thread states:
"Part of this might be a "first fruits" kind of thing (where the 996 GT3 was such a revelation for those of us in the U.S.) but more and more I think that we saw a great leap forward from 993 to 996 in dynamic terms that the 996 to 997 update can't be expected to repeat (for obvious reasons)."
He wrote his opinion in the excellence article and recognizes that it is just that, an opinion.
IMO, a stock 996 GT3 has some major handling anomolies. No surprise the 997 has some too. Just like with the prior car, they can be addressed and even with the anomolies, are both fast machines. Stock, the 997 is faster and likes being sideways and the 996 is slower and requires more effort at turn in.
The molehill continues to grow.
"Part of this might be a "first fruits" kind of thing (where the 996 GT3 was such a revelation for those of us in the U.S.) but more and more I think that we saw a great leap forward from 993 to 996 in dynamic terms that the 996 to 997 update can't be expected to repeat (for obvious reasons)."
He wrote his opinion in the excellence article and recognizes that it is just that, an opinion.
IMO, a stock 996 GT3 has some major handling anomolies. No surprise the 997 has some too. Just like with the prior car, they can be addressed and even with the anomolies, are both fast machines. Stock, the 997 is faster and likes being sideways and the 996 is slower and requires more effort at turn in.
The molehill continues to grow.
02-02-2007, 11:05 AM
#33
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Nomex on so hopefully not too many flames. IMO the GT3 for me is a very "sporting" sports car that can be driven on the street and thrashed at the track which creates inherent compromises. We in the USA also live in a rather litigious era that does not reward stepping too far from the norm. Ultimately my preference would have been to make the GT3-RS the standard and build up from that to make an even more exotic uber-RS BUT, and a rather large one is that Porsche does neet to sell cars and the community of buyers for a no holds bar track ready uber-RS seems smaller than the current situation. Ultimtely I selected the GT3 because it could serve dual roles and if I do become totally insane I will add a Super-Cup and be done. Personally I cant wait and I do look forward to the journey. 
02-02-2007, 11:46 AM
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I usually don't like to chime in on these type of threads as they seem to serve absolutely no useful purpose but I feel I must say a few things.
If one wants to talk about the article,great...if instead it now becomes another "this vs. that and a what if this vs. a what if that," I tend to get weary quickly.
Not in every case, but obviously for the most part, every new model will be better than the previous and that holds true in this case as well. Having gone from a 997s to a 996GT3 I can somewhat speak to this issue.
My 997s was great, period...it did what I wanted it to do until I took it to the track. It was o.k. there, but not great. My main emphasis is the track so I moved to the GT3. Absolutely no regrets. I bought Jerseybean's car because it was well sorted with the JIC Cross competition suspension on top of the already numerous suspension changes made by F/L and then Jon Groom Racing. Obviously it also has a DAS bar, GT3 seats, harnesses and all the other safety equipment. It is also about to have triple adjustable Motons placed on her along with Brembo floating hats on the front.
As the Excellence article mentions, this makes the 996GT3 just about as close to perfect as you can get.
The 997GT3, just as my 997s, will have much sharper turn in I presume and will suffer from the PASM just as my 997s did on the track. Yes I understand it is better than the one on my S but...it is still PASM.
To quote Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks..."can't we all just, GET ALONG?" Let's stop this ridiculous "other model" bashing.
Out of the box driving on the street the 997GT3 will be miles ahead of a stock 996GT3 and certainly better than my 996GT3...on the track I am sure mine set up with the Motons and other equipment will be better(not saying faster) than my friend's 997GT3 arriving next week...his (with the same aftermarket equipment) would be better than mine on the track. Period - end of story.
For the price delta I was able to upgrade my tow vehicle to a 2006 GMC 2500 duramax diesel, add the above mention aftermarket equipment and purchase a new 24' ATC trailer that comes in 2 weeks to haul her to the track with, and for me...that is priceless!!!!!
Take care and may we all "dance with whom we brought" and be happy...at least until I get the urge to "upgrade" to a cup car - but that is a different story and thread
If one wants to talk about the article,great...if instead it now becomes another "this vs. that and a what if this vs. a what if that," I tend to get weary quickly.
Not in every case, but obviously for the most part, every new model will be better than the previous and that holds true in this case as well. Having gone from a 997s to a 996GT3 I can somewhat speak to this issue.
My 997s was great, period...it did what I wanted it to do until I took it to the track. It was o.k. there, but not great. My main emphasis is the track so I moved to the GT3. Absolutely no regrets. I bought Jerseybean's car because it was well sorted with the JIC Cross competition suspension on top of the already numerous suspension changes made by F/L and then Jon Groom Racing. Obviously it also has a DAS bar, GT3 seats, harnesses and all the other safety equipment. It is also about to have triple adjustable Motons placed on her along with Brembo floating hats on the front.
As the Excellence article mentions, this makes the 996GT3 just about as close to perfect as you can get.
The 997GT3, just as my 997s, will have much sharper turn in I presume and will suffer from the PASM just as my 997s did on the track. Yes I understand it is better than the one on my S but...it is still PASM.
To quote Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks..."can't we all just, GET ALONG?" Let's stop this ridiculous "other model" bashing.
Out of the box driving on the street the 997GT3 will be miles ahead of a stock 996GT3 and certainly better than my 996GT3...on the track I am sure mine set up with the Motons and other equipment will be better(not saying faster) than my friend's 997GT3 arriving next week...his (with the same aftermarket equipment) would be better than mine on the track. Period - end of story.
For the price delta I was able to upgrade my tow vehicle to a 2006 GMC 2500 duramax diesel, add the above mention aftermarket equipment and purchase a new 24' ATC trailer that comes in 2 weeks to haul her to the track with, and for me...that is priceless!!!!!
Take care and may we all "dance with whom we brought" and be happy...at least until I get the urge to "upgrade" to a cup car - but that is a different story and thread
Last edited by Chris L.; 02-02-2007 at 02:23 PM.
02-02-2007, 03:20 PM
#35
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Funny how some people can read an article but don't really read it. First, the NASCAR reference was made because of the configuration of the track they used that day. And, the reviewer clearly states that he would buy the 997GT3 over the 996... So what's the problem?
He also says he prefers the character/feel of the 996GT3, and his opinion here can't argued away with lap times. There's no mistaking, the character of the 997GT3 has changed to one that's more of a GT, especially in the US, with all the added luxury items and PASM. When I drove the 997GT3, this is exactly the same sense I came away with; it's a great car, looks good, sounds good, but is losing it's "raison d'être".
The most important thing about this review is the 2400 miles they spent driving - more miles than most of you complaining will drive your 997GT3 before you sell it.
He also says he prefers the character/feel of the 996GT3, and his opinion here can't argued away with lap times. There's no mistaking, the character of the 997GT3 has changed to one that's more of a GT, especially in the US, with all the added luxury items and PASM. When I drove the 997GT3, this is exactly the same sense I came away with; it's a great car, looks good, sounds good, but is losing it's "raison d'être".
The most important thing about this review is the 2400 miles they spent driving - more miles than most of you complaining will drive your 997GT3 before you sell it.
02-02-2007, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by zellamsee
Great info from all. Anyone know if the set-up on the GT3 RS is exactly the same as that on the standard GT3? I seem to recall that the PASM step up on the RS was further reduced, so as to be less noticeable, but I might be mistaken. In other words, wondering if the same issues noticed by Excellence and others (with PASM) will be present with the RS.
02-02-2007, 07:28 PM
#38
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Excellent, thanks -- I have an RS on order, and hoping the different set-up (wider track, different PASM, etc) eliminates the PASM niggles and wiggles that Pete Stout found in the regular GT3 . . . .
02-02-2007, 07:40 PM
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I wouldn't worry too much about one man's opinion. I have had my RS for 4 months and believe me, I have no "niggles" on the PASM set-up. On the contrary I think it's an outstanding improvement that makes the car very useable on the street and razor sharp on the track.
Edited: Sorry - 3 months
Edited: Sorry - 3 months
02-02-2007, 08:48 PM
#40
Originally Posted by JFT
I wouldn't worry too much about one man's opinion. I have had my RS for 4 months and believe me, I have no "niggles" on the PASM set-up. On the contrary I think it's an outstanding improvement that makes the car very useable on the street and razor sharp on the track.
Edited: Sorry - 3 months
Edited: Sorry - 3 months
How many track days?
PCCBs?
What rotor temps?
Thanks.
02-02-2007, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
PSMA? If you're going to assert an opinion, at least know the acronym and type it correctly.
"Hard street driving" is hardly the proving ground for suspension tuning in terms of building a sense of consistently and learning about a car and it suspension. On a race track, the tires and suspension can be controlled to optimum operating temperatures and specifications (especially in terms of roll and travel.)
Let's consider this again once you have back to back driving with your Cup car.
I was suprised to see a reference to out-right lap records with Jeff Gordon in one of those NASCAR shock-and-awe things those guys drive, but it was couched as "just for fun" -- it's not as if anyone was suggesting there's importance in the comparison other than the mental image of suggesting a multi-million dollar all out race car will be barely ten seconds quicker on a two minute lap versus a street legal production car with "registration and insurance, please driver."
"Hard street driving" is hardly the proving ground for suspension tuning in terms of building a sense of consistently and learning about a car and it suspension. On a race track, the tires and suspension can be controlled to optimum operating temperatures and specifications (especially in terms of roll and travel.)
Let's consider this again once you have back to back driving with your Cup car.
I was suprised to see a reference to out-right lap records with Jeff Gordon in one of those NASCAR shock-and-awe things those guys drive, but it was couched as "just for fun" -- it's not as if anyone was suggesting there's importance in the comparison other than the mental image of suggesting a multi-million dollar all out race car will be barely ten seconds quicker on a two minute lap versus a street legal production car with "registration and insurance, please driver."
As far as Hard street driving, that is what most of us will do with the majority of the miles on these cars. I have a great road, the weather has been good and the tires get plenty heated. It is very close to a race track. Just can't run much over 7/10ths. I can get a pretty good idea of the way the car is going to handle on the track. My opinion is it feels very solid and I felt no inconsistancies. Just my opinion. Take it for what it is worth.
What is your experience?? Don't you have a 997 GT3. What is your opinion??Have'nt you spent plenty of time on the track????
I will keep you posted after I get the car on the track.
Any one else had the same problems as this writer guy. I have talked with many on the Euro boards. Non of them have every commented about a twitchy rear end. Or any other major problems with the PSMA ( check Spelling ). I all hear is how much better the chassis is and how much more power it has and how stable it is.....Maybe they don't drive the cars as hard???
I would love to hear some impresions on others track experience. I have a funny feeling it has more to do with the set up. I doubt Porsche would build a new car that is overly twitchy on the racetrack. Don't they spend a little time on the track with them?? Time will tell I guess.
Last edited by RS 197; 02-02-2007 at 09:38 PM.
02-03-2007, 05:37 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by RS 197
I doubt Porsche would build a new car that is overly twitchy on the racetrack. Don't they spend a little time on the track with them?? Time will tell I guess.
Experience proves otherwise. The fastest laps on the Nordschleife are done on the normal, not firm suspension setting. Whilst this may sound contrary, ask the Weissach test drivers, and the engineers responsible.
VERY smooth F1 style high speed circuits and slower speed tight tracks MAY be faster on the firm setting.
In my street environment, which includes a lot of high quality autobahnen, the firm setting has to be switched off once speeds exceed 150 mph, and is pointless below that. On my preferred track, the fastest setting is normal. Remember in my environment, the taxi which drives into town from the airport does 135mph.
If I want to drive on a F1 style track then I am better off in a Cup car without too many compromises.
However, application of liberal sums of money and a good engineer should resolve these problems. I have always had good experience with Öhlins when I can find the right engineer.
Interestingly, the best set-ups for 911s and similar racing on the Nordschleife are fairly well understood by the supsension component suppliers and not terribly expensive compared with most race oriented parts.
The biggest problem with n-way adjustable shocks is learning how to adjust them. Even if you take an engineeer to the track with you, you still have to learn how to translate your experience into something the engineer can relate to.
Similarly the ultimate in shock are rather wasted if you don't generally sort out all the other suspension niggles at the same time.
R+C
02-03-2007, 08:02 AM
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Here's a thought, in "stiff" mode the suspension of the 997 GT3 appears to be too stiff for anything other than very smooth surfaces ...with street tires.
Mike K tried race slicks on his 996 GT3 and discovered that the stock suspension was too soft to exploit the very sticky tires. Perhaps the benefits of PASM will be more evident with race rubber?
Regards,
Mike K tried race slicks on his 996 GT3 and discovered that the stock suspension was too soft to exploit the very sticky tires. Perhaps the benefits of PASM will be more evident with race rubber?
Regards,
02-03-2007, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
(Unrelated to debating the magazine.)
How many track days?
PCCBs?
What rotor temps?
Thanks.
How many track days?
PCCBs?
What rotor temps?
Thanks.
No
High. What do you mean?
Back to the magazine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. After driving the 997 GT3, Pete formed his. I just find it amusing how people get worried because the opinion comes from someone who writes in a magazine. I have spent 10 times as much time with my car. So have other people like Glenn. I have yet to find the niggles and wiggles that Pete speaks of. I would be delighted to report on them if I did. Of course, Pete might be right and I simply missed these issues. Please just don't take any article as a universal truth. There is no objectivity involved in these things.
02-03-2007, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordschleife
However, application of liberal sums of money and a good engineer should resolve these problems...The biggest problem with n-way adjustable shocks is learning how to adjust them.