Carrera GT

Gotcha. My mistake.

krC2S

haven't driven the gt3 yet but based on 997s and what i heard from gt3 comments problem with PASM is
it allows too much shock rate change which is good for porsche to claim sthan street/track car with less compromise but the downside is you can see sudden and overeactive bahavior due to this that makes things artificial and unpredictable

i think best thing to do is to have 3 or maybe 4 modes not just 2 sport and normal and allow only small shocks fine tuning within each mode basically almost ike pss9 but doing chnages by hitting a button.

stout

Exactly. And, if we're the lone voice in the wilderness on this, I am okay with that.

But I do recall being in a similar position on calling it like we saw it on early 997Ss with PASM. The only other mag to do so was Autocar. The problem seemed to go away by 2006.

One of the most satisfying moments was seeing a 2005 997S owner post up recently with his happiness after having Manthey bushings installed in the rear of his car to get rid of the lurch -- and this two years after getting argued out of doing anything about the rear-end "lurch" we identified in 2004 by another web forum member back. I believe the argument back then, like now, is that: we're baked, or somehow flawed ("at best") in our testing methods and conclusions.

I think, more accurately, that we tend to identify details that other magazines don't because of our focus on Porsches and the fact that most magazine writers get 1 night with each model at best and/or only occasional assignments to cover a new model.

I also think that many of these things really are molehills for most, that some drivers will be bugged by the same things we are, and others will not. Depends on sensitivity, driving style, etc. How much impact any traits we or others identify will be up to each person to decide for themselves -- IF they ever get the opportunity to do so in a real sense after real time and miles in the car in the right situations and with the right background and knowledge base. Yipes, you start to see the challenge of "doing it right" that even magazines face. We can only strive to do it better each and every time out.

Again, we're just calling it like we see it -- and ours is just one more voice in the COLLECTED wisdom about the cars we all love.

Because, in all the major ways that matter, Porsches are still absolutely brilliant driver's cars.

One last thing: I/we don't write "to the boards." To do so would make no sense. A good topic/thread might get what, 1000 views? 2000? We've got 50,000+ readers. All of them pay full fare, too.

I do, however, check the boards from time to time and am often impressed by the enthusiasm of those who post on them. There are many good discussions, and the breadth, immediacy, sense of community, and personal nature make them great fun.

But we're a totally different kettle of fish. A good magazine should cover the news accurately, use its access to serve its readers above all else, and -- hopefully -- spark discussions or, at the very least, challenge its readers to think things through.

Otherwise, we may as well get into printing press releases.

Often, after good discussion, SOLUTIONS are found, and PASM as a push-button PSS-9 system is exactly where I believe Porsche should go for its GT cars. The benefits of technology, without having to distract the driver in order to "prove" its worth.

If PASM could yield the even 80 percent of the goodness of Motons with push-button selectivity, then that would make it far better than Motons as a part of the production package.

The C-GT showed us the epitomy of materials and other "basic" technology rather over gadgets and driver aids and it was and is a stunning driver's car. I was hoping it pointed the way and method forward for the regular models.

We don't need another 959. And we don't need another Elise. But a 2500-pound Boxster/Cayman and a 2700-pound 911 sure would hit the spot, even if it takes 10 years to get there.

Cheers,

pete

mitch236

Why can't us water pumpers just get along? We sound just like the old debate between the "real" Porsches (air cooled) and the Japanese Porsches (water cooled)!

The way I see it, the 996 had non adjustable lower control arms which made getting -3.5 camber impossible without replacing them with the real GT-3 lower control arms from a cup car. Isn't this a compromise? So I have to ditch the PASM and get Motons or something similar. What I need to find out is how to put the 997 GT-3 on a diet. My first loss will be the exhaust system which looks very heavy indeed. The seats also will come out and replaced with proper racing seats. (BTW, those street seats are a major compromise too).

I don't want a cup car. If I did, I would have bought one. I want a car that is street legal, insurable and warranteed. The 997 GT-3 seems to be my best choice. I still love the 996 GT-3. They are both great cars and the fortunate few who get to drive these great cars should be grateful for whatever circumstance contributed to that ability.

zellamsee

Thanks Pete for weighing in. Nicely said. Good to see you in this space, and I can only hope that PCNA and PAG are checking in too and listening to our collective thoughts and opinions . . . .

JasonAndreas

If you happen to know of a control unit sitting in a "rotary file=filing cabinet?" and collecting dust I'm looking to borrow one to take a look to see what's possible.

frayed

Pete, my main issue with picking on PASM is that alignment and tire pressures were not optimized. 31lbs cold in the rear = 40+ after hard lapping. That's too much and can completely transform how the car feels when pushed. Also, a track alignment would have been nice. Then the a/b comparo would have been much more instructive.

While I enjoyed the report and it answered a lot of questions about the 997, it left some unsettled. Notably, are the flaws you felt due to the active suspension or setup?

Carrera GT

The cold numbers are 29/34 and 34 cold gets you to 40 in the rear and I like the car running 35/40 hot. On the day, the weather was mild and there wasn't a lot of activity on track aside from some hot lapping Mopar family wagons.

In hindsight, now I have more time in the car, I don't think tires were letting down the 997 or coming into play in the comparison much at all. Those new Sport Cups are a good all round tyre and useful for the comparison to have both cars on similar technology, but not what I'd want in future. For the road, I'd take something more durable (these are worn out at 1500 miles and four track days.) For the track, more stick and probably wider in the front to use even more of the PCCBs (which don't break a sweat in the front.)

I have the "race circuit" alignment on the 997 now and it's not "accessible" with the stick of the Sport Cups -- in other words, there's more camber in the rear than the car is using -- it's going to need softer sway settings and/or R compounds or even slicks to access the grip in the rear. The front will understeer but I imagine Johannes drives around understeer in his sleep.

I hope we get some Roland Kussmaul settings for the 997. I wonder if the RS will have the same recommended settings?

I'm looking forward to many more days on a variety of tracks to start to figure out the formula for the 997 to match the 996 for my driving. Hopefully we'll start getting information from multiple sources on what works.

frayed

Really? Here I see 10lbs of increase in the rear. 26 cold put me in the sweet spot (36ish) for the PSCs on the GT3. But I tend to drive pretty loose, and instructors hate me.

I have Michelins ppt presentation on the PSCs. Cutting from those slides:

"PRESSURES
General Guidelines:
Road Racing :
25-28 psi cold (front/rear)
32-36 psi hot (front/rear) is your typical target
Autocross (slalom): Looking for same range (of hot pressures--may need to start at higher cold inflation pressures because of the decreased pressure gain in autocrossing).
Road: OE pressures
Rain: For both autocross and road racing, you may have to increase tire pressure 6-10 psi from what you would normally run in dry conditions. Your car and driving style in the wet is important here, so some experimentation may be in order."

Carrera GT

Is there a DOT street legal shell seat?
The track voids the warranty.
You're not insured on the track (give or take.)

For diet, yes the battery, exhaust, suspension, brakes, wheels, headlights, a/c, seats, flywheel, audio system and some cabin trim can be removed or replaced with some much lighter options. Miscellaneous air-bags might be useless once you have the car with a four point roll bar, shell seats and HANS. Getting under 3000lbs should be possible without getting too serious. Or you can go further. You could remove door trim, window regulators, replace the sunroof with a single panel (of CF if you like) and the front trunk lid, the engine deck lid is heavy, there's thin yet DOT approved glass, the gas strut lifters end up on the shelf replaced by a few grams of wooden rod, the gas tank could be a smaller fuel cell, even the gallon of washer fluid can be less and in a smaller container. Maybe there's a light weight 18' wheel that would stretch around the 15' PCCBs and those enormous calipers. Lots of options to go tumbling down the slippery slope.

ps. You do want a Cup car. Everyone wants a Cup car. The interesting thing is how the Cup isn't much lighter than the GT3. That's daunting.

AllanJ

Hey Jeff,

Do you have one of those ppt presentations for the PS2s? I know you track guys don't care about those tires but some of us are warming up to track events via autox and the OEM PS2s. In my rainy climate a 50sec run in the rain isn't going to heat up the tires much.

I'm just trying to reconcile my (996 GT3) manual's blurb about 32/39psi COLD with the PS2 tires and what you guys are talking about. A bit apples/oranges, but I'm just trying to figure things out.

Thanks for your patience with us newbies.

Carrera GT

By "loose" I guess you're saying power-on oversteer, which roasts the surface of the tire but doesn't push heat into the core the same way load does. If you're gaining 10psi, that suggests the tire started too cold, in my humble. You should see normal air grow by 6lb-ish. Nitrogen by about 1-2lb. Your out lap must be a challenge.

I tried starting 29/34 cold (based on what Excellence reported about RS testing and Porsche revising the earlier 29/33 numbers) and working up and down until I got to a point of comfort. I ended up right about where I started. And if you go a little too low or high, the TPC thingy complains about high or low pressures. It seems about 4lbs is enough to set it off.

Sport Cups, in this "Gen II" on the 997 are a bit less susceptible to heat build up and getting greasy and chunking. But I was tearing rubber off the fronts when cornering after braking from 100mph+ into T2 and the Corkscrew. Keeping the fronts around 35 was also keeping those 19's away from the berms. So, a lot of things to balance out. And I'm still driving the car well within limits and not taking it to the levels I'm comfortable visiting in the 996. I have to keep reminding myself to disable the TC and trust the car. It helps to "loosen up" in the 996, then go play with the 997.

The next rubber won't be Sport Cups again. Some R compound probably. I feel like a lot more rubber on the front would be welcome -- for cornering an braking. I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with lower pressures once I get the suspension sorted and start going a bit quicker. And with the mid-range torque, there's plenty of pedal for 2nd gear show-boating. : ) Both the 996 and 997 are relatively powerful and heavy cars, so you're treating them almost like Turbo and avoiding cooking the rears.

icon

adam huh?
i thought it was b/t 6-700 pounds lighter!?

pete,
couldnt agree w/ you more on this although i don't want to wait ten years!
jeff

Carrera GT

What?!

You want me to back up my posts with facts?

: )

Groan. I guess I worded that sentence poorly, but the idea is simple: if the race cars are already "heavy" what hope is there for the street cars.

I dunno. The RSR is about 2700lb (porsche.com says "approx. 1,225 kg") and the Cup is under 2500lb (approx. 1,120 kg (PCCB) or approx. 1,140 kg (Steel)) making both race cars substantially lighter than the RS basis which is meant to be a tad less flab than the normal GT3.

My point is that these race cars are bare bodies with cages, hot, noisy cabins and no compromise to the creatures occupying their innards. It's a daunting prospect to make a GT3 or RS trim down to be at the 2500lbs of the Cup.

If the race cars were 2000lb catwalk waifs, there'd be some prospect of a street car being a lithe 2500lb nymphette.


Ugh. Typing all that just brought home how difficult it would be to really trim down the coming generations of 911.

I should acknowledge that race cars carry inherent burdens of safety and the escalation of power brings consequences of bigger brakes, wheels, you name it. The discussion has been played out here many times. If you look at a light 911, everything becomes concomitantly lighter, so it might be possible to see Porsche deliver a "light weight" car with smaller, lighter engine and transaxle, smaller and lighter running gear and suspension, smaller brakes, less wheel and tyre etc. etc. Smaller body, etc.

If Porsche went "all in" they could deliver a 911 RS Lightweight again. If the RS were to become 450hp and 3400lb, the same equation could arrive in a modern RSL as a 320hp car around 2600lbs. Round figures. And I wouldn't care if they had the same price. Porsche could finally see us dissenters vote with our wallets instead of seeing the debate trivialized by controversial sunroofs.

frayed

No. I'm just talking about healthy slip angles not full on drifter stylieee, yo.