wahoo55

Someone asked about LiqiMoly. I have been running LiquiMoly 10W-60 in my 7.2 GT3 RS for the last 18 months. I change oil every three track days except for running One Lap in 2019 and 2021. I run about 10 track days a year at VIR. Oil temps in the summer are under 230. This oil was the recommendation of engine builder Autometrics in SC and a Porsche race mechanic. The car has about 55k miles on it.

JB911

15W-50 and 10W-60 are also not an approved viscosity for these engines. It might be ok for air-cooled motors-
Motul 300V has pretty much the same zddp levels as Mobil 5W-50, and anyone who wants to go nuts on zddp, their Racing 0W-50 has 1750/1850 levels.

Exon/Mobil/Chevron are Standard Oil, going back to the late 1930s when they also created Tetraethyl lead for WWII aviation gas, with up to 150 octane. They also secretly cooperated with Germany making synthetic oil and fuel in exchange for synthetic rubber before and into the first years of WWII
Mobil also makes jet oil and piston aircraft oil. They hit a brick wall when trying to formulate a modern synthetic oil for piston aircraft and in 1995 there was a lawsuit from plane owners with Continental engines. That particular engine design had issues with sludge from the tetraethyl lead in the gas(100 octane still used today)
Since the lawsuit most av engine oils are 100% mineral, and I believe shell is 50% synthetic.

Aviation engines are not high revving, maintain a steady rpm etc so the comparison to car engines to me is important mostly to know from the research and past problems, and not completely applicable to car engines.. The Continental engine design suffered from the issues with the Mobil synthetic oil which was discontinued. I know 930 owners that use avgas 100 and as far as I know, traditionally air cooled Porsche owners avoid synthetic oils for various reasons and that could be found in their threads/posts.
I don't know how many years Porsche has had the Mobil agreement but its been way over a decade since they've shipped new cars with Mobil 0W-40, including Cup cars as far as I know-
Here's the lawsuit and Continental engine issues details:
https://www.avweb.com/features/mobil-av-1-under-attack/

JB

00 Scrub

Wanted to bump this back up. Does anyone know where this copper is coming from? My car has had 3 oil changes all with elevated copper. I'm guessing it's nothing to worry about since everything seems to run well, but I'm curious.
Last two changes were with Motul 300v 5w-40, and I think the first change was done by the PO with Motul 8100 5w-40

Clifton

@00 Scrub Make sure that Blackstone has the correct engine make/model. Yours currently shows DFI which is not the Mezger GT3. Under the Unit section, compare my report 'MAKE/MODEL:' to your report. I would make sure the blackstone is using the right engine code to ensure accurate comparisons with universal averages.

Here is my most recent Blackstone with history since new. You can see that copper has always been present and was high during early break-in periods, but continues to level off.

myztahe

Just ran a Blackstone Oil Analysis as well on my 7.1 GT3. My car is a bit higher mileage than the rest (60K miles) and had a moderate engine-out service at 40K (coolant pipes, clutch, flywheel). Between life events and other distractions I ran a longer interval than I normally do (~6K miles). Based on the comments it seems like the average oil change interval Blackstone sees on these motors is 1,900 miles. Given that my wear metals were inline with samples with 1/3rd the mileage and my motor has higher miles than many, it supports an earlier comment that metal wear decreases as these motors rack up miles. Copper wear seems elevated but not out of the scope of some of the other reports listed in this thread.

myztahe

When it comes to copper wear, I can't comment for certain on Metzger internal design but I can shed some light on what the BMW community has faced with rod bearing issues on M-engines of the 00s. I'll try to summarize and leave out nuance so that it's more broadly applicable.

Background: I previously owned three M-cars, an E39 M5 (180K miles), an E60 M5 (120K miles), and an E92 M3 (60K miles), and did the rod bearing service on each. As far as I knew, I was the first to do the rod bearing work on each of these cars. The two M5s were California cars for their entire life whereas the M3 had lived its life in New York. All bearings showed some wear but the wear on the M3 was the worst despite having the lowest mileage.

What happens? Rod bearings serve as a sacrificial layer of metal for connecting rods where they meet the crankshaft, allowing these assemblies to rotate without wearing prematurely as long as they are well lubricated with oil. They are two halves of a circle (so they can inserted on the round crankshaft journal) that tend to be constructed from multiple types of metals to for their different properties. On the inside you might want to take some of the thermal and structural characteristics of copper, which can be pliable, and on the outside you might want a harder, abrasion resistant metal like steel [[b]See image below]. Rod bearings will wear over time but lack of lubrication will accelerate this wear (increased friction + heat accelerates the metal breakdown). Over time, if there is enough wear on the backing (where the two halves of the circle meet), one bearing can get lodged behind another and slip/spin out of position, causing two expensive bits (the crankshaft and the connecting rod) to knock into each other.

Why does it happen? On BMW M-cars I believe this failure occurs frequently due to distinct factors: the system design and individual usage

• Long Service Intervals: At the time, BMW offered complementary service and maintenance on all vehicles for the first 4 years or 50,000 miles. In part to save money on (millions) of oil changes, service intervals were increased. BMW recommended oil change intervals of every 15,000 miles on the M-cars which meant the oil was seriously degraded by the time it was changed.
• Oil Viscosity: Given the motorsports nature, BMW Motorsport specced these motors with a heavy, viscous oil (10W-60) which was great for racing and thermal dissipation but not great for daily driven commuter cars. The oil's viscosity when cold would not allow it to properly lubricate everything ... starts to make sense why M-cars have those cool lights on the tachometer to let you know when they are warming up!
• Bearing Clearance: BMW Motorsport also specced these bearings with a very tight clearance (limited room between the bearing, crankshaft, and connecting rod) which constricted the flow of oil

• Improper Warmup: Daily-driven vehicles rarely have the luxury of idling around while they get up to proper operating temperature. They need to turn on and go for the Type A busy-bodies like us that buy them. Compound that with rev-happy motors which encourage you to wind them out for power and it makes it too easy to accidentally mistreat the motor.
• Environment: Not all cities share the same weather. California and the south like to be warm and avoid freezing temperatures all year while the north experiences the extremes of most seasons. Imagine that brittle, cold motor cranking over every morning in the winter while goopy oil slowly tries to make its way through the system like honey left in the freezer.

TL;DR: Change the oil often, drop down to a lower viscosity oil if you live in a cold climate (and don't track the car), and let the oil warm up before you load up the engine.
Hope this all helps or at least helps foster more of an appreciation for those Porsche engineers

Pictured: BMW E60 M5 Rod Bearings after 120K miles of wear

00 Scrub

Clifton, thanks for pointing that out! I got the report amended to use the correct motor.

Amended Report

por944s2

Here is my Analysis on my 08 GT3. Was changing the oil at 1500 after buying the car and am streching out the milage now. Cooper seems to run hight in some of these engines. So far have only run M1 0/40.

Bxstr

Here's the oil analysis that just came back on my 997.1 GT3. 28k miles on it. 1700 miles on the oil sample. I run Mobil1 0W40. The amount of research that I've done trying to convince myself to switch over to something like Driven DT40 or Amsoil is a considerable amount of research, but I've stuck with Mobil1 given that analysis has come back clean. I'm always expecting some shearing on my oil, but it seems to come back within spec. Also, both my local independent shops as well as the dealer (understandably regarding the dealer) only stock Mobil1. You'll notice that I am missing one oil analysis in there from spring 2022, my shop forgot to take the sample. Also, the "make up" oil notes in there were just due to my shops being conservative on filling it up, not due to actual burning. My two independent shops typically fill right to the minimum or between minimum and halfway up. I always like to stay at around halfway up. My dealer typically is able to fill right up to the full line without overfilling, likely because they have PIWIS and can more accurately fill. If I remember correctly, PIWIS has a very accurate way of measuring exactly how much additional oil is needed. This is why I didn't need any make up oil this past year as my dealer did the oil change last year. As I go through other posts about oil analysis, I do notice that my Zinc is lower and as mentioned above, Mobil1 likely isn't the best from that perspective, so maybe it is a reason for me to switch next year.

My driving habits are point A to point A drives, typically weekly from April-October. Car sees next to no drives of under 30 mins. Most drives are 1 hour+, if not 2-3 hours.

Wonderdan

I’ve not done this yet, can I take left over oil out of my oil pan from the last change “pan was new”

what chart/reference do you use to make determinations on health?

I didn’t know my PIWIS had something for oil in it, I’ll poke around

I run Mobil1 5W-50

Robocop305

Great report. I’m planning on switching to Mobil 1 5W50 on my next oil change.

Bxstr

Hi Dan,
If you had a brand new, perfectly clean oil pan from last time, you probably could use this oil to send to them. Something to keep in mind though is that when you try and scoop the oil out of the pan, some of the metals and particles in the oil may not get picked up since those likely settled to the bottom, so you'd somehow need to mix up the oil in there. Typically they recommend catching the oil mid stream when draining, so you want to open the drain plug and then within say 5-10 seconds, take some oil. If it was me, I'd probably just take a sample next time as I'd rather know that I'm getting the best result possible rather than having something come back askew and not knowing if it was just due to getting it from the pan.

The universal averages on the far right is what other people that have sent in samples have their oil look like. Anything out of spec would be bolded. They also have the unit location averages which is the average of my samples.

Here's a quick video of the PIWIS oil change screen, not sure if this works on the 997 or not:
Regarding oil analysis in general, I do this more for fun as I like collecting data and documentation on my car. It's also a good baseline of knowing if something is wrong with the motor.

Joe

Bxstr

This may be the best answer for me too. I know it's highly recommended and I only drive my car in the summer in Ohio, so I'm not concerned with cold starting during winter. I'll do some research over winter as I have time and see if I circle back to the conclusion of switching.

Wonderdan

ok I’ll do as you suggest and just wait for next time, is there an ideal mileage to change so align with the mean, like 3000 I’m assuming?

Nvm just looked they normalize by miles, I’ll just do the regular interval then

JB911

I switched to Mobil 5W-50 10 years ago immediately after buying my car. It's Porsche approved, it has the widest viscosity range, and no other oil company. has or had more knowledge and experience with petroleum-it's Standard Oil, they were already making synthetic oil and gasoline in the late 1920s and in fact that's the one of the technology exchanges they had with Germany in the late 1930s and into the war period-synthetic oil and gasoline in exchange for Germany synthetic rubber technology, one of many. Standard Oil also owned the patent on Tetraethyl lead, anti-knock for avgas (up to 150 octane). Anyone interested in this I can send links to the books-

There are many threads on oil for these cars-the puff of smoke at start up, the "death rattle" on some startups, and many other symptoms. The 5W-50 in my experience is better on cold starts than 0-W40, and for extreme summer the 50 is also much better. I don't get puff of smoke on startup, have rarely heard the death rattle, and suspect some people may have overfilled their oil which would also be a factor in the puff of smoke. On changes, I always fill 9.5 quarts, and it's always spot on, with few exceptions. And I've drained a bit right from the crank case, carefully, after loosening the drain plug you can hold it against the hole, with a cup under it you tilt the drain plug and allow a "dose" of oil into the cup, and then screw in the plug again. Done carefully, unless you drop the drain plug, it's possible. So one could get an oil sample like this between oil changes, after the engine cools down somewhat, because you want oil with particles in suspension after running. I wouldn't get a sample from a cold engine which hasn't been started. And a rag or paper towel to wipe the drain plug and surrounding area is also a good idea, they get road grime which could contaminate the oil sample.

Anyone contemplating the Mobil 5W-50, I suggest Napa. 5W-50 is not easily found, but they have it and usually there's a sale. It's $6.99 qt right now so you can have it ready when it's time for the oil change
BTW, the PIWIS 100%-200% scale is really strange. I've had PIWIS for quite some time but haven't used the oil function, but it's supposed to be the most accurate. After a change, the engine must be fully hot above 200 degrees for an accurate oil level reading, and if the person panics with a low level reading before it's hot, adds oil, will end up overfilling- so in my experience, 9.5 qts is usually perfect-

JB