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Sorry for the troll-style title, but I mean it looking back with 12 years of new/go-fast cars, is there anything special about it, or was it simply a very fast car?
I ask, because I'm considering buying one after I spend months* of selective research to affirm whatever half-baked decision I come up with after seeing if the good people of Rennlist, and hopefully a few current or previous owners, opine here.
Background:
1) I always make perfectly rational irrational decisions. My 2 current daily drivers are a 991.2 GT3 Touring and a 1989 FJ62 Land Cruiser. Perfect for most occasions, and can always borrow the wife's Audi A7 when real practicality becomes necessary. I don't ever really think about selling cars. Prefer to assume I'll buy forever and if I don't, so be it.
2) I want a car that would be unique enough to not simply be an alternative to the GT3T. It should bring a smile to my face for its own strengths. I find absurdity a strength, fwiw. Car probably doesn't need to be daily driver, but it should be uniquely exciting enough that I would want to just go drive it a few times a month just because it brings a smile.
3) related to number 1, while I said I don't care about selling that's not true. While I wouldn't mind starting to hoard cars (collecting implies something different I think) that are special to me, they need to be special enough to other people that in theory if I decided to sell they retain value better than the avg $200k car...feels like that should be related to driving experience, but I dunno. I certainly don't think it is a going to be a great investment, so simply not depreciating as fast as other cars is a good enough bar.
Which brings me to what is confusing to me.
1) These sold at auction and at dealers in the $235k to $260k range a few years ago. Prices have been trending down.
2) Cars sit around at dealers for a while.
3) Most cars available now seems to have 5-6 previous owners.
So.....that leads me to assume:
1) Prices shot up because all limited production Porsches went up.
2) They aren't really special cars at all. Just really fast 11-12 year old cars.
So, would love to hear that view affirmed from a previous owner, or conversely someone that plans to keep one as a dead man's car tell what makes it awesome.
If you bothered to read all this and conclude I talked myself out of one, you might be right, but definitely can be talked into being impulsive.
* ~6 months cause I have to relocate my driveway and build a new garage because my GT3T chin doesn't scrape with FAL up, but the rear diffuser does, and yes, I know to drop the FAL once I'm slightly on grade. Also... optimistically assuming prices will be slightly lower cause COVID etc, and buying cheaper is way better strategy than hoping to buy a car that will go up in value.
I think I can give you a pretty well rounded answer. I've owned Porsche 911s since 2009 and have owned 2 996TTs (first in 2009, second in 2018). In 2013 I bought my 2010 997.2 GT3 RS and it's my 'forever' car. Truly the greatest car I've been lucky enough to own, and by considerable margin.
However, I come from a turbocharged background and that relates heavily to this story. Cars like Toyota Supra Turbos, and Nissan 300ZX Turbos, Nissan GTRs, etc. It's what originally drew me to the 996TT as an amazing first Porsche because I knew I'd love the engineering but didn't want to give up on the forced induction experience. Fast forward to spring of 2018 when I'm thumbing through my monthly issue of Panorama and I spot a 2008 GT2 available for a price I just *might* be able to afford if I quickly sold my 996TT and GT-R (and coughed up a bit of cash). I did a bunch of research quickly on the 997.1 GT2 and soon realized it was the unsung hero in the Mezger lineup. Even the 996 GT2s seemed to have a more ravenous and loyal following. I couldn't figure out why, but I knew how much I loved the 997 generation and the rarity and special nature of the car certainly appealed to me. I put together a deal on principle, sold both of my cars within 3 weeks, and sent all my money internationally (holy crap...that was nuts!) to pay for my new 997.1 GT2.
On my actual birthday last year (April 2019) I took delivery of my 2008 GT2 and, with my wife happily in tow, we drove it about 2800 miles from Toronto, ON, Canada back to Seattle, WA, Along the way I became a registered importer at the border, got to drive in practically every road condition possible, and generally had one hell of a great time enjoying my new car with my best friend with me! We saw dry roads, wet roads, every fuel grade you can imagine, snowy roads, icy roads, and generally just had a big adventure together. I wouldn't trade any of it and the GT2 was such a wonderful car to make the trip in. We were both sad to finally get home as we truly enjoyed it as a life-long memory.
I personally believe the 997.1 GT2 is one of the most undervalued modern Porsche 911s available on the market. It's a much more special car than people seem to realize, but I remain uncertain if it will stay that way forever or if the tide will eventually turn in its favor. With 1242 made worldwide and only 194 sold in the USA, I tend to believe that the secret will eventually get out, and way too many of these fine cars are already being stored in protective cocoons and not enjoyed on the road and track. Needless to say, I already have mine and have no plans to let it go until I cannot drive a manual transmission anymore. It's just a sensational car all around and is special enough to remind you of it on every single drive.
PS. I would also recommend buying a 2009 model if you can, but they are very few and far between. They come with PCM v3.0 which is a very worthwhile factory option. Best wishes to you on your indecisiveness of course!
Taking delivery on my birthday! Visiting Mount Rushmore on the way home Cruising through Montana Safe at home at last!
“I'm considering buying one after I spend months* of selective research to affirm whatever half-baked decision I come up with ”
if you’ve spent months thinking/researching there’s probably something to it.
“ I want a car that would be unique enough”
GT2 is pretty unique
“I wouldn't mind starting to hoard cars”
Hoarding cars much better than hoarding toilet paper
The real answer to me is forced induction vs naturally aspirated. What do you prefer?
Not going to say whether or not you should buy, but will explain a couple reasons why you are seeing the things you are in the market.
$250-260k prices at auctions years ago. First, the market for Porsche’s was hotter than it is now a couple years back and it is still hot now. But look at RS Green 997.1 GT3’s that were selling for ridiculous numbers, 991 GT3’s trading for over ask, GT4’s selling for $10k or more over MSRP. The market has softened to where it probably should be. May go down a bit more, but the market is more normal now.
Cars sit on dealer lots either because they are priced too high for the condition, or that the market is just slow at that time. The best cars that are clean are going to sell at the correct market price, sometimes they won’t even come up on the market. Also people get scared away seeing a car sitting on a lot for a couple months. That alone may keep some away.
5-6 owners. My opinion which has been gained from people in the business is don’t judge a car on the number of owners. Everyone on rennlist and your fellow car friends like to talk about buying and selling cars, trying something new. For some reason when buying a car people see a number of owners as a bad thing. Not an issue if the car was properly maintained and has records to show that it wasn’t flipped due to problems or that no one ever changed the oil because they thought the last guy did it. Buy on condition and buy the seller.
Now answering your question, simply addressing 1 point.
My car had 6 previous owners. I've had the car for 3 years....not a single thing wrong with it. Lesson I learned:. do not make assumption based on the # of owners. A car CAN have only 1 awful owner can't it?
As previous 2009 GT2 owner, if you like turbo cars it’s fantastic, much better experience than the 997.1 turbos. Chassis is lively and scary at times. Very rare. Likely values to hold and not likely drop much. Sometimes its fun to lull around and use the low end torque to tool around town.
Find 09 if you can. I follow market closely maybe one comes up for sale per 12-18 months
Like Bxstr said. The market for limited run cars is not the same as high production cars. It follows its own rules.
Covid-19 is much less likely to impact the market of limited run cars. Unless it's a fire sale, people tend to sell in no particular hurry. Unlike mass production cars, where a pipeline of new vehicles keep hitting the dealers' lots, there is less pressure to dump high-end cars where the pipeline is a trickle.
Right now the first weapon dealers and manufactures are using is attractive financing, but you haven't seen prices falling on new cars ( sed inventory does seem to be softening a little). Also, manufactures are shut down, so there is less pressure to push cars off dealer's lots due to inventory overcrowding. Dealers still need to pay their rent, expenses, and employees, but seem reluctant to slash prices just yet, particularly on high-dollar inventory.
Not going to say whether or not you should buy, but will explain a couple reasons why you are seeing the things you are in the market.
$250-260k prices at auctions years ago. First, the market for Porsche’s was hotter than it is now a couple years back and it is still hot now. But look at RS Green 997.1 GT3’s that were selling for ridiculous numbers, 991 GT3’s trading for over ask, GT4’s selling for $10k or more over MSRP. The market has softened to where it probably should be. May go down a bit more, but the market is more normal now.
Cars sit on dealer lots either because they are priced too high for the condition, or that the market is just slow at that time. The best cars that are clean are going to sell at the correct market price, sometimes they won’t even come up on the market. Also people get scared away seeing a car sitting on a lot for a couple months. That alone may keep some away.
5-6 owners. My opinion which has been gained from people in the business is don’t judge a car on the number of owners. Everyone on rennlist and your fellow car friends like to talk about buying and selling cars, trying something new. For some reason when buying a car people see a number of owners as a bad thing. Not an issue if the car was properly maintained and has records to show that it wasn’t flipped due to problems or that no one ever changed the oil because they thought the last guy did it. Buy on condition and buy the seller.
^ Bingo. My car passed through 3 owners in 18 months. Twice within the same family. Rarish, semi collector cars can move through peoples collections without even hitting the market. Condition and seller. In terms of value, I think the 997 platform is the sweet spot right now. They have been up and down a bit but I am positive they will reach those great numbers form 5 years ago or higher in time. We saw quality 7.2RS's hit 350K at one point. GT2's are even rarer and hold value even better. I think overall this is not a bad time to get in...
Thanks all so far for the replies. I guess I haven't fundamentally answered the "Do I want a Turbo?" question yet.
I purposely bought the 991.2 GT3T as my daily because it was N/A. In fact, it was a bit overboard, but I was frustrated with that none of the 2016 GTS's I was seeing last year were optioned the way I wanted, and didn't want a 991.2 to daily given turbo.
Prior to that I was driving a 2014 Cayman S as a daily, because also not turbo (it was also a former PCNA corporate car specced in Racing Yellow with PCCB, PTV, Sport Chrono etc, so it felt special)
That said, in my mind the GT2, must be great at being a Turbo, given now 4-generations of being positions at the top of the turbo range.
Specifically, what would make it special (to me) is if it was very docile at low-RPMs and compliant in traffic, but when I find open space and step on it, it gives the feeling of being launched from a cannon. My GT3T is great as a non-turbo car being very linear, which is what i like as a daily, but again, want to buy a car that offer a very different experience. Basically, something that exaggerates the turbo sensation, while still being civilized. Reality is I'd probably never track it.
My only point about seeing most cars currently with dealers having 5+ owners (and quite a few with dealers for over a year), is that implies that people that have owned them enjoyed them for a year or so, but then moved onto a different car, but maybe there is some selection bias here and the other ~180 other cars not for sale are with people that would never dream of selling, which is what I'm trying to understand.
osu s2k - given you owned one but since sold, any regrets on selling? curious what else you've owned since then. also, you mentioned trying to find a 2009. i assume that's because of the more limited production? i know the PCM also changed, but that's not important to me as I only got a smart phone when my company took away my blackberry, and am borderline Luddite. were there any other changes between 2008 and 2009? Gorgeous car by the way!
Thanks again everyone. Would also love to get the opinion of someone who still owns one and how'd they compare to to more recent Porsches.
I'm thinking about picking up something really special at the end of the year. Have been thinking about the 997 GT2, McLaren 675LT and Ferrari Challenge Stradale. All three are pretty rare and have similar worldwide production numbers.
The GT2 is a decently high performing car, but its performance is no longer stunning by current standards. Its appeal to me is as an icon for a golden era of Porsche. As a driving experience, I do prefer exercising naturally aspirated engines. I admit the GT2's draw for me is more ownership than driving. I wouldn't expect it to be as fun to drive as my 997.2 GT3 4.2.
The 675LT is a performance monster. It also seems much more "exotic" than the GT2. The concern I have with McLaren from an ownership perspective is that they keep releasing new models on a very aggressive cadence. It's less of a factor with the 675LT, which has already taken a pretty massive depreciation hit. This one is quite tempting for me.
The Challenge Stradale is currently at the top of my lust list. It sounds awesome. It's a very raw and visceral driving experience. I think it looks gorgeous. It's a Ferrari. Weaknesses? Not very quick compared to the other two or against modern performance cars.
I'm thinking about picking up something really special at the end of the year. Have been thinking about the 997 GT2, McLaren 675LT and Ferrari Challenge Stradale. All three are pretty rare and have similar worldwide production numbers.
The GT2 is a decently high performing car, but its performance is no longer stunning by current standards. Its appeal to me is as an icon for a golden era of Porsche. As a driving experience, I do prefer exercising naturally aspirated engines. I admit the GT2's draw for me is more ownership than driving. I wouldn't expect it to be as fun to drive as my 997.2 GT3 4.2.
The 675LT is a performance monster. It also seems much more "exotic" than the GT2. The concern I have with McLaren from an ownership perspective is that they keep releasing new models on a very aggressive cadence. It's less of a factor with the 675LT, which has already taken a pretty massive depreciation hit. This one is quite tempting for me.
The Challenge Stradale is currently at the top of my lust list. It sounds awesome. It's a very raw and visceral driving experience. I think it looks gorgeous. It's a Ferrari. Weaknesses? Not very quick compared to the other two or against modern performance cars.
........Specifically, what would make it special (to me) is if it was very docile at low-RPMs and compliant in traffic, but when I find open space and step on it, it gives the feeling of being launched from a cannon.......Reality is I'd probably never track it.........
It sounds like a 997TT might actually be better for you than a GT2. With anything short of good rubber and surface condition / temp, you will quickly run out of rear tire traction at WOT, especially with any sort of power upgrades. There is a reason the TT is AWD. You can mod the heck out of both the TT and GT2 (if you were so inclined), but the TT will always do better in the acceleration department. I used to be all about high revving NA motors back when I used to race, but reality is most of them are quite underwhelming on the street. Conversely, the production turbo cars aren't really known for their track prowess. If you have come this far to post your question here, you know there aren't many cars that are highly competent in multiple roles.
Regarding the cars having 5+ owners, Id have to echo many of the other comments here to the effect that that should not necessary be a concern. Look back at the 991 GT2RS a couple of years ago. Like that car, the first 2-3 997GT2 owners were likely flippers/VIP's who probably stored them away and keep them out of the sunlight, babied, and always detailed and dusted. It's probably only now or in the last few years or so that these car's current and immediately former owners were likely to have been non-collectors or at least people more willing to drive and enjoy them. With so few having been produced, they are and will always be collector cars.
Originally Posted by point2point
....The GT2 is a decently high performing car, but its performance is no longer stunning by current standards.....
This is true and has always been true with each new generation. The problem is that the top cars today are not as entertaining and do not connect you to the road like the older ones used to. At the end of the day, it's a balance between absolute performance and fun factor. The two are very strongly correlated of course, but there are any number of trade-offs, each of us much make on their own based on our own experience, preferences, desires, and means.
Originally Posted by atlrvr
..........Would also love to get the opinion of someone who still owns one and how'd they compare to to more recent Porsches.
I just bought mine last year. Cross shopped 991.2 GT3 and 991.1 RS. Unimpressed with both on the street save for the redline and PDK which is definitely fun in its own way, but both cars lacked that satisfaction that comes with being pushed into the back of the seat with the right pedal. Back when I was a kid, my first exposure to Porsche was going for a full-throttle joyride in a '76 930. Back then, that thing was an absolutely untouchable rocket ship ride. To me, a 911 is missing something if it cant still do that.
I would also be remiss if I omitted the fact that I considered which car would be a better "investment" or at least the better store of value, as I am not a multiple car collector.
997 gt2 is direct descendant of 930....i could easily daily gt2 albeit clutch is heavy, i sold mine because the na rs feels more special and a bit more fun winding it out on the backroads. Gt2 with a tune is every bit as fast as most anything except a hypercar and u will quickly out of road. I think collector value
is there. Prices are 25-50k off msrp whereas i paid just over msrp for my 10k mile 997.1 rs. I miss it but enjoy other cars more....i still have my 76 930
04-14-2020, 08:54 PM
Is the 997.1 GT2 still a good car?
