IMS & bore scoring = scared newbie
06-12-2017, 03:52 PM
#46
Racer
I've said this before but it bears repeating...reading too much on Rennlist is like reading too much on WebMD. After a while you'll convince yourself you have cancer.
Drive it until the engine blows then LS swap it and listen to all the purists bitch and moan.
Drive it until the engine blows then LS swap it and listen to all the purists bitch and moan.
06-14-2017, 02:12 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
^^
John,
The OP was concerned about IMS and Bore Scoring. Unfortunately in post No. 38 had his 997.2 bit by bore scoring and his warranty company is giving him the run-around.
I'm thinking one possible good option is to buy a ragged out, high mileage 997.1 at a low price and have the engine properly rebuilt.
John,
The OP was concerned about IMS and Bore Scoring. Unfortunately in post No. 38 had his 997.2 bit by bore scoring and his warranty company is giving him the run-around.
I'm thinking one possible good option is to buy a ragged out, high mileage 997.1 at a low price and have the engine properly rebuilt.
Long drain intervals, high oil temperatures, crappy oil, and ethanol fuels all contribute to this.
We're now seeing shops that are rebuilding engines having the rebuilds fail because injectors are going bad and leaking and/or having poor fuel distribution. This wipes out the rings, contaminates the oil, and causes all kind of other problems. Fuel in the oil is bad for the cylinders. That's why engines from cold climates that have longer cold start intervals (Canada) have more cylinder scoring when the piston skirt coatings fail.
We are in the process of adding a mandate that new injectors are installed on all engines that we sleeve.
08-03-2020, 02:01 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
How much was that? I'm thinking of being proactive too.
08-03-2020, 08:17 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
I had the scare too, when on a business trip and had too much time in my hotel room to read all the threads.
But my fright was justified, I came home and did a plug/coilpack change and did a bore scope and found scoring in all 6 cyl, with #6 being the worst.
If I had ignored the issue, and did what many say to do aka "just drive it and enjoy it" I may of ended up down the road in a worst place. To rebuild the engine and correct from a bore score situation, many key parts are needed to be reused. If I had ignored the warning signs and not found the issue, the internal damages would of led to complete block failure and far more expense down the road.
I also could of flipped the car at that time, but I am not comfortable with selling the car without passing on the knowledge of its engine. The financial loss was also not acceptable, to sell with engine failure known, and then be without a 911. So I elected to get mine fixed. The finanical loss is still there (due to the expense of the rebuild) but I end up with the car I want and with a better/fresh engine.
But my fright was justified, I came home and did a plug/coilpack change and did a bore scope and found scoring in all 6 cyl, with #6 being the worst.
If I had ignored the issue, and did what many say to do aka "just drive it and enjoy it" I may of ended up down the road in a worst place. To rebuild the engine and correct from a bore score situation, many key parts are needed to be reused. If I had ignored the warning signs and not found the issue, the internal damages would of led to complete block failure and far more expense down the road.
I also could of flipped the car at that time, but I am not comfortable with selling the car without passing on the knowledge of its engine. The financial loss was also not acceptable, to sell with engine failure known, and then be without a 911. So I elected to get mine fixed. The finanical loss is still there (due to the expense of the rebuild) but I end up with the car I want and with a better/fresh engine.
08-04-2020, 05:17 PM
#50
Instructor
Clearly an issue and it appears that many are on the fence of 997.1 vs 997.2 because of both this and the IMS bearing...I think a portfolio approach to this is a prudent way to help quantify the risk. Eg: bore score affects x% of M97 engines x rebuild = discount...say it is 2% and a $20k rebuild, then your probability-adjusted risk is $400...use whatever numbers you think are realistic. This approach can help potential P-car owners decide if the 997.2 premium over the 997.1 is worth it...
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Doug H (08-04-2020)
08-05-2020, 02:47 AM
#51
Nordschleife Master
Bore scoring is becoming more prevelant as these things age and get miles on them. I purchased 4 996s new, albeit 3 were twin turbos, and on my fourth h 997, two turbos and 2 997.2s.
The M96 has always been a problem child. RMSs were going out like crazy in the early 2000s. The IMS is a bigger issue than some let on. My dealership just had another IMS failure a couple of weeks ago and silly to think you hear about most of them on the forums.
The vast majority of people I know with 911s have never heard of Rennlist or 6speedonline and don't care about or have time for forums.
The M96 has always been a problem child. RMSs were going out like crazy in the early 2000s. The IMS is a bigger issue than some let on. My dealership just had another IMS failure a couple of weeks ago and silly to think you hear about most of them on the forums.
The vast majority of people I know with 911s have never heard of Rennlist or 6speedonline and don't care about or have time for forums.
08-05-2020, 11:35 AM
#52
Three Wheelin'
Clearly an issue and it appears that many are on the fence of 997.1 vs 997.2 because of both this and the IMS bearing...I think a portfolio approach to this is a prudent way to help quantify the risk. Eg: bore score affects x% of M97 engines x rebuild = discount...say it is 2% and a $20k rebuild, then your probability-adjusted risk is $400...use whatever numbers you think are realistic. This approach can help potential P-car owners decide if the 997.2 premium over the 997.1 is worth it...
Not sure why this three year old thread was resurrected but I agree with Doug's comment above from 2017 that most P owners are not on these forums. Folks who post here tend to have an obsession with our cars (certainly I do) which definitely skews our outlook due to the emotional attachment. Not saying that's bad, just that normal people don't think all that much about IMS bearings, bore scoring, and PDK failures. We aren't a representative cross section of a typical Porsche owner.
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FlatHat (08-05-2020)
08-05-2020, 01:27 PM
#53
Former Vendor
Completely agree with this thinking as it's classic risk management, not just on models but also on warranties. One has to evaluate the risk (both likelihood and consequence) versus the benefit. These boards tend to understandably focus more on the consequence as it's sensational, whereas likelihood isn't discussed all that much. Not many people would pay 25% of the cost of a grenaded engine for a warranty if it only had a 1% chance of happening. If it's 20% likely it starts to make more sense.
Not sure why this three year old thread was resurrected but I agree with Doug's comment above from 2017 that most P owners are not on these forums. Folks who post here tend to have an obsession with our cars (certainly I do) which definitely skews our outlook due to the emotional attachment. Not saying that's bad, just that normal people don't think all that much about IMS bearings, bore scoring, and PDK failures. We aren't a representative cross section of a typical Porsche owner.
Not sure why this three year old thread was resurrected but I agree with Doug's comment above from 2017 that most P owners are not on these forums. Folks who post here tend to have an obsession with our cars (certainly I do) which definitely skews our outlook due to the emotional attachment. Not saying that's bad, just that normal people don't think all that much about IMS bearings, bore scoring, and PDK failures. We aren't a representative cross section of a typical Porsche owner.
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PV997 (08-06-2020)
08-07-2020, 12:50 PM
#54
Three Wheelin'
08-07-2020, 04:28 PM
#55
Former Vendor
Good video, thanks Jake. Seeing that Ferroprint piston coating flaking off at such low mileage on a well-maintained engine is a real concern. I wonder if time (as opposed to just miles) is factor in all of this since Ferroprint is a soft resin-based coating. Perhaps it dries out as it ages making it more susceptible to lifting. I wish Porsche was more forthcoming about all of this but they sure like their secrets. Baz thinks the 9A1 went back to a hard electroplated coating (probably Ferrotec) rather than the printed coating seen in the M96/97. Seems to make sense based on the evidence as the coating looks different on the newer pistons.
The Porsche is a different story. The cars are worth fixing, and the engines are worth developing fixes for.
Time certainly drives these failures, as the toll of extended oil service intervals take their toll, as well as modern fuels coupling with this.
There's a few reasons why bore scoring took off like a rocket in January of 2018, from all over N America, and it has stayed that way. Before this we saw around 10 engines per year with bore scoring as their decisive factor for coming to Flat 6. Today that number has exploded, and bore scoring is responsible for 80% of all the engines we see that have a failure.
Anyone who is concerned about bore scoring needs to follow the part 4 video in the "Focus on bore scoring" series and bore scope their own engine for 40 bucks, using a cheap tool from Amazon that attaches to your smart phone. Scope from the sump, and the spark plug holes.
No worries, that's fact over fear.
08-07-2020, 04:52 PM
#56
Three Wheelin'
What are the reasons it took off so significantly in Jan 2018? I am very curious and value your opinion.
08-08-2020, 12:58 AM
#59
Former Vendor
I just love comments like this. You guys give me a lot more marketing credibility than I deserve for a high school grad that was a Special Ed scholar~
No, all the videos about these issues were released AFTER the "take- off" and they were launched to address the same questions that we were getting several times per week. No longer do we have to play 20 questions, and give the same answers to different people with the same issues, and the same symptoms. We did the videos so we could paste some links and say "go watch this".
As far as what was the driving factor, I have believe that changes in fuel over the last few years was a driving factor, as we note definite changes in the calls, and reports within a month or so after the switch from winter to summer blend fuels occurs, and then when they change back in winter.
We sent 4 proposals out for consideration today, of those 2 have confirmed bore scoring, one has supposed bore scoring (all the symptoms but no evaluation yet) and the 4th is elective.
No, all the videos about these issues were released AFTER the "take- off" and they were launched to address the same questions that we were getting several times per week. No longer do we have to play 20 questions, and give the same answers to different people with the same issues, and the same symptoms. We did the videos so we could paste some links and say "go watch this".
As far as what was the driving factor, I have believe that changes in fuel over the last few years was a driving factor, as we note definite changes in the calls, and reports within a month or so after the switch from winter to summer blend fuels occurs, and then when they change back in winter.
We sent 4 proposals out for consideration today, of those 2 have confirmed bore scoring, one has supposed bore scoring (all the symptoms but no evaluation yet) and the 4th is elective.
