IMS & bore scoring = scared newbie
01-15-2017, 04:48 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
IMS & bore scoring = scared newbie
First time 997 owner, but have owned many P cars prior.
Sooo, I bought my '06 997 C4S in July w/91k miles on it and have driven it about 8-900 miles since purchasing it. The car is great, and serves as a second car/weekend cruiser. My issue, is that I've been reading this forum and scaring the HECK out of myself.
With the car being an '06, I've kind of gotten past the IMS scare in my mind and just planned to shell out for the LNE replacement for piece of mind, but now I've been reading these bore scoring horror stories.
Are these .1 cars bad news? It doesn't seem like bore scoring can necessarily be prevented? Gambling with a 20k ish engine rebuild seems dumb.
Dump it? Trade it? It's in winter storage currently, and I'm not sure what to do when it comes out.
Thoughts?
Sooo, I bought my '06 997 C4S in July w/91k miles on it and have driven it about 8-900 miles since purchasing it. The car is great, and serves as a second car/weekend cruiser. My issue, is that I've been reading this forum and scaring the HECK out of myself.
With the car being an '06, I've kind of gotten past the IMS scare in my mind and just planned to shell out for the LNE replacement for piece of mind, but now I've been reading these bore scoring horror stories.
Are these .1 cars bad news? It doesn't seem like bore scoring can necessarily be prevented? Gambling with a 20k ish engine rebuild seems dumb.
Dump it? Trade it? It's in winter storage currently, and I'm not sure what to do when it comes out.
Thoughts?
The following 5 users liked this post by Lvt19672:
adnan76 (08-08-2020),
DesmoSD (08-05-2020),
jlert (11-04-2022),
Oneday997 (08-05-2020),
tegraphile (08-06-2020)
01-15-2017, 05:47 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
It's an 06 so no IMS concerns....don't plan on the LN as the motor requires to be broken down to remove/replace the bearing. Bore Score....have your cylinders scoped (#6 is the most volnerable) and with a good report you have peace of mind. Change the oil every 5k and enjoy the car.
FWIW, my friend has an 09 with PDK and lost a cylinder and his PDK went sour. For him, the engine was on him as his warranty was out but the PDK was replaced under warranty....and that's the new DFI engine....stuff happens, plain and simple.
I stay ahead of the maintenance (preventive) which some say is a waste of money, but in 58k miles I have never been stranded, or have had anything break. I prefer to choose when the car goes to the shop, not the other way around.
The 997.1 is a great car, enjoy the car!
FWIW, my friend has an 09 with PDK and lost a cylinder and his PDK went sour. For him, the engine was on him as his warranty was out but the PDK was replaced under warranty....and that's the new DFI engine....stuff happens, plain and simple.
I stay ahead of the maintenance (preventive) which some say is a waste of money, but in 58k miles I have never been stranded, or have had anything break. I prefer to choose when the car goes to the shop, not the other way around.
The 997.1 is a great car, enjoy the car!
The following users liked this post:
Hella-Buggin' (08-05-2020)
01-15-2017, 05:55 PM
#4
Drifting
01-15-2017, 07:03 PM
#7
We need a FAQ stickied to the top of these forums. The 997 resale market is opening up to a lot of first time pcar owners and the same questions are coming up more frequently. I'll start:
Q: Where am I?
A: This is Porsche 911 sub forum for 997 Normally Aspirated (NA) cars model years 2005 through 2012. The majority here have cabs and coupes, both 2-wheel drive and 4-wheel drive. Targas and GTS's get lots of love too just in the minority. Sport Classics are also included. But if you have a Turbo/GT2/GT3/Cup Car, or any other year/make/model you are in the wrong forum. Feel free to stay, but please stay on topic.
Q: But my Turbo Cabriolet is a 997, am I in the right place?
A: Your car is Forced Induction (FI). This is a NA forum. See the question above.
Q: What years are 997.1 versus 997.2?
A: For NA cars the 997.1 are from 2005 through 2008. 997.2 are 2009 through 2012.
Q: What cars are narrow bodied (NB)? What ones are wide bodied (WB)?
A: The 2-wheel drive cars are NB (Carrera and Carrera S). 4-wheel drive are WB (Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S). It does not matter if you have the base model or sport model, or cab/coupe/targa. The one exception is the GTS - it's a 2-wheel drive wide bodied car. Note - this is different than the 996 series as the 'S' models were WB's and base models NB's. For 997's 2WD are NB, 4WD are WB. Try not to be confused.
Q: What is the difference between Coupe, Cabriolet, and Targa?
Targas have a glass retractable top and rear lifting hatch. Cabs are convertibles with canvas top that can automatically be retracted. Coupes have a solid roof with a sliding metal sunroof. There was a factory option for the sunroof delete but it is rarely found on NA 997's.
Q: Do I have an IMS bearing problem like the 996 series?
A#1: Early 2005 997.1's have the same intermediate shaft (IMS) and bearing as the 996 series. This means this engine shares the same faults as the 996, was included in the class action lawsuit, and shares the same fixes for the problem as the 996 series. You can replace the IMS bearing on the early 2005's with a more robust aftermarket version without tearing down the engine. But you do need to drop the transmission to gain access.
A#2: Late 2005's through 2008 (the majority of the 997.1's) have an improved IMS bearing design from Porsche. It is larger and more robust with almost zero reported direct failures. But it is no longer "serviceable". To change the larger bearing the engine needs to be torn down and the crankcase split in half. But since this larger bearing already installed in your car by Porsche fixes the 996 IMS bearing issue, there is no longer a problem to "fix". Any mechanic that "fixed" your late 2005 through 2008 997.1 IMS bearing for under $10K is lying to you - you got ripped off. There are documented cases here on these forums of people who were charged to "fix" their bearing when in fact the work was never done, as their engine was not removed and disassembled.
A#3: 997.2's do not have an intermediate shaft so no IMS bearing and no problem whatsoever. If you have a 2009 through 2012 you do not have an IMS bearing. Run from any mechanic that wants to "fix" your non-existent 997.2 IMS bearing.
Q: Where am I?
A: This is Porsche 911 sub forum for 997 Normally Aspirated (NA) cars model years 2005 through 2012. The majority here have cabs and coupes, both 2-wheel drive and 4-wheel drive. Targas and GTS's get lots of love too just in the minority. Sport Classics are also included. But if you have a Turbo/GT2/GT3/Cup Car, or any other year/make/model you are in the wrong forum. Feel free to stay, but please stay on topic.
Q: But my Turbo Cabriolet is a 997, am I in the right place?
A: Your car is Forced Induction (FI). This is a NA forum. See the question above.
Q: What years are 997.1 versus 997.2?
A: For NA cars the 997.1 are from 2005 through 2008. 997.2 are 2009 through 2012.
Q: What cars are narrow bodied (NB)? What ones are wide bodied (WB)?
A: The 2-wheel drive cars are NB (Carrera and Carrera S). 4-wheel drive are WB (Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S). It does not matter if you have the base model or sport model, or cab/coupe/targa. The one exception is the GTS - it's a 2-wheel drive wide bodied car. Note - this is different than the 996 series as the 'S' models were WB's and base models NB's. For 997's 2WD are NB, 4WD are WB. Try not to be confused.
Q: What is the difference between Coupe, Cabriolet, and Targa?
Targas have a glass retractable top and rear lifting hatch. Cabs are convertibles with canvas top that can automatically be retracted. Coupes have a solid roof with a sliding metal sunroof. There was a factory option for the sunroof delete but it is rarely found on NA 997's.
Q: Do I have an IMS bearing problem like the 996 series?
A#1: Early 2005 997.1's have the same intermediate shaft (IMS) and bearing as the 996 series. This means this engine shares the same faults as the 996, was included in the class action lawsuit, and shares the same fixes for the problem as the 996 series. You can replace the IMS bearing on the early 2005's with a more robust aftermarket version without tearing down the engine. But you do need to drop the transmission to gain access.
A#2: Late 2005's through 2008 (the majority of the 997.1's) have an improved IMS bearing design from Porsche. It is larger and more robust with almost zero reported direct failures. But it is no longer "serviceable". To change the larger bearing the engine needs to be torn down and the crankcase split in half. But since this larger bearing already installed in your car by Porsche fixes the 996 IMS bearing issue, there is no longer a problem to "fix". Any mechanic that "fixed" your late 2005 through 2008 997.1 IMS bearing for under $10K is lying to you - you got ripped off. There are documented cases here on these forums of people who were charged to "fix" their bearing when in fact the work was never done, as their engine was not removed and disassembled.
A#3: 997.2's do not have an intermediate shaft so no IMS bearing and no problem whatsoever. If you have a 2009 through 2012 you do not have an IMS bearing. Run from any mechanic that wants to "fix" your non-existent 997.2 IMS bearing.
Trending Topics
01-15-2017, 07:13 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
I had the scare too, when on a business trip and had too much time in my hotel room to read all the threads.
But my fright was justified, I came home and did a plug/coilpack change and did a bore scope and found scoring in all 6 cyl, with #6 being the worst.
If I had ignored the issue, and did what many say to do aka "just drive it and enjoy it" I may of ended up down the road in a worst place. To rebuild the engine and correct from a bore score situation, many key parts are needed to be reused. If I had ignored the warning signs and not found the issue, the internal damages would of led to complete block failure and far more expense down the road.
I also could of flipped the car at that time, but I am not comfortable with selling the car without passing on the knowledge of its engine. The financial loss was also not acceptable, to sell with engine failure known, and then be without a 911. So I elected to get mine fixed. The finanical loss is still there (due to the expense of the rebuild) but I end up with the car I want and with a better/fresh engine.
But my fright was justified, I came home and did a plug/coilpack change and did a bore scope and found scoring in all 6 cyl, with #6 being the worst.
If I had ignored the issue, and did what many say to do aka "just drive it and enjoy it" I may of ended up down the road in a worst place. To rebuild the engine and correct from a bore score situation, many key parts are needed to be reused. If I had ignored the warning signs and not found the issue, the internal damages would of led to complete block failure and far more expense down the road.
I also could of flipped the car at that time, but I am not comfortable with selling the car without passing on the knowledge of its engine. The financial loss was also not acceptable, to sell with engine failure known, and then be without a 911. So I elected to get mine fixed. The finanical loss is still there (due to the expense of the rebuild) but I end up with the car I want and with a better/fresh engine.
01-15-2017, 07:18 PM
#9
Drifting
We need a FAQ stickied to the top of these forums. The 997 resale market is opening up to a lot of first time pcar owners and the same questions are coming up more frequently. I'll start:
Q: Where am I?
A: This is Porsche 911 sub forum for 997 Normally Aspirated (NA) cars model years 2005 through 2012. The majority here have cabs and coupes, both 2-wheel drive and 4-wheel drive. Targas and GTS's get lots of love too just in the minority. Sport Classics are also included. But if you have a Turbo/GT2/GT3/Cup Car, or any other year/make/model you are in the wrong forum. Feel free to stay, but please stay on topic.
Q: But my Turbo Cabriolet is a 997, am I in the right place?
A: Your car is Forced Induction (FI). This is a NA forum. See the question above.
Q: What years are 997.1 versus 997.2?
A: For NA cars the 997.1 are from 2005 through 2008. 997.2 are 2009 through 2012.
Q: What cars are narrow bodied (NB)? What ones are wide bodied (WB)?
A: The 2-wheel drive cars are NB (Carrera and Carrera S). 4-wheel drive are WB (Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S). It does not matter if you have the base model or sport model, or cab/coupe/targa. The one exception is the GTS - it's a 2-wheel drive wide bodied car. Note - this is different than the 996 series as the 'S' models were WB's and base models NB's. For 997's 2WD are NB, 4WD are WB. Try not to be confused.
Q: What is the difference between Coupe, Cabriolet, and Targa?
Targas have a glass retractable top and rear lifting hatch. Cabs are convertibles with canvas top that can automatically be retracted. Coupes have a solid roof with a sliding metal sunroof. There was a factory option for the sunroof delete but it is rarely found on NA 997's.
Q: Do I have an IMS bearing problem like the 996 series?
A#1: Early 2005 997.1's have the same intermediate shaft (IMS) and bearing as the 996 series. This means this engine shares the same faults as the 996, was included in the class action lawsuit, and shares the same fixes for the problem as the 996 series. You can replace the IMS bearing on the early 2005's with a more robust aftermarket version without tearing down the engine. But you do need to drop the transmission to gain access.
A#2: Late 2005's through 2008 (the majority of the 997.1's) have an improved IMS bearing design from Porsche. It is larger and more robust with almost zero reported direct failures. But it is no longer "serviceable". To change the larger bearing the engine needs to be torn down and the crankcase split in half. But since this larger bearing already installed in your car by Porsche fixes the 996 IMS bearing issue, there is no longer a problem to "fix". Any mechanic that "fixed" your late 2005 through 2008 997.1 IMS bearing for under $10K is lying to you - you got ripped off. There are documented cases here on these forums of people who were charged to "fix" their bearing when in fact the work was never done, as their engine was not removed and disassembled.
A#3: 997.2's do not have an intermediate shaft so no IMS bearing and no problem whatsoever. If you have a 2009 through 2012 you do not have an IMS bearing. Run from any mechanic that wants to "fix" your non-existent 997.2 IMS bearing.
Q: Where am I?
A: This is Porsche 911 sub forum for 997 Normally Aspirated (NA) cars model years 2005 through 2012. The majority here have cabs and coupes, both 2-wheel drive and 4-wheel drive. Targas and GTS's get lots of love too just in the minority. Sport Classics are also included. But if you have a Turbo/GT2/GT3/Cup Car, or any other year/make/model you are in the wrong forum. Feel free to stay, but please stay on topic.
Q: But my Turbo Cabriolet is a 997, am I in the right place?
A: Your car is Forced Induction (FI). This is a NA forum. See the question above.
Q: What years are 997.1 versus 997.2?
A: For NA cars the 997.1 are from 2005 through 2008. 997.2 are 2009 through 2012.
Q: What cars are narrow bodied (NB)? What ones are wide bodied (WB)?
A: The 2-wheel drive cars are NB (Carrera and Carrera S). 4-wheel drive are WB (Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S). It does not matter if you have the base model or sport model, or cab/coupe/targa. The one exception is the GTS - it's a 2-wheel drive wide bodied car. Note - this is different than the 996 series as the 'S' models were WB's and base models NB's. For 997's 2WD are NB, 4WD are WB. Try not to be confused.
Q: What is the difference between Coupe, Cabriolet, and Targa?
Targas have a glass retractable top and rear lifting hatch. Cabs are convertibles with canvas top that can automatically be retracted. Coupes have a solid roof with a sliding metal sunroof. There was a factory option for the sunroof delete but it is rarely found on NA 997's.
Q: Do I have an IMS bearing problem like the 996 series?
A#1: Early 2005 997.1's have the same intermediate shaft (IMS) and bearing as the 996 series. This means this engine shares the same faults as the 996, was included in the class action lawsuit, and shares the same fixes for the problem as the 996 series. You can replace the IMS bearing on the early 2005's with a more robust aftermarket version without tearing down the engine. But you do need to drop the transmission to gain access.
A#2: Late 2005's through 2008 (the majority of the 997.1's) have an improved IMS bearing design from Porsche. It is larger and more robust with almost zero reported direct failures. But it is no longer "serviceable". To change the larger bearing the engine needs to be torn down and the crankcase split in half. But since this larger bearing already installed in your car by Porsche fixes the 996 IMS bearing issue, there is no longer a problem to "fix". Any mechanic that "fixed" your late 2005 through 2008 997.1 IMS bearing for under $10K is lying to you - you got ripped off. There are documented cases here on these forums of people who were charged to "fix" their bearing when in fact the work was never done, as their engine was not removed and disassembled.
A#3: 997.2's do not have an intermediate shaft so no IMS bearing and no problem whatsoever. If you have a 2009 through 2012 you do not have an IMS bearing. Run from any mechanic that wants to "fix" your non-existent 997.2 IMS bearing.
So true but you could actually just start with "Before you ask your question, do a search. By that we mean actually do a search. Don't ask a question, say you did a search, when everyone can tell you actually didn't do a search
"OP, why are you going to do the scope ie whats the purpose? If there is no scoring there is no gtee there wont be in the future. If there is, then what?
01-15-2017, 07:20 PM
#10
Instructor
Thread Starter
Interesting, thanks for the response. Do you mind sharing a range of magnitude on what the rebuild set you back? Did you have new cylinder liners done?
01-15-2017, 07:24 PM
#11
Drifting
I had the scare too, when on a business trip and had too much time in my hotel room to read all the threads.
But my fright was justified, I came home and did a plug/coilpack change and did a bore scope and found scoring in all 6 cyl, with #6 being the worst.
If I had ignored the issue, and did what many say to do aka "just drive it and enjoy it" I may of ended up down the road in a worst place. To rebuild the engine and correct from a bore score situation, many key parts are needed to be reused. If I had ignored the warning signs and not found the issue, the internal damages would of led to complete block failure and far more expense down the road.
I also could of flipped the car at that time, but I am not comfortable with selling the car without passing on the knowledge of its engine. The financial loss was also not acceptable, to sell with engine failure known, and then be without a 911. So I elected to get mine fixed. The finanical loss is still there (due to the expense of the rebuild) but I end up with the car I want and with a better/fresh engine.
But my fright was justified, I came home and did a plug/coilpack change and did a bore scope and found scoring in all 6 cyl, with #6 being the worst.
If I had ignored the issue, and did what many say to do aka "just drive it and enjoy it" I may of ended up down the road in a worst place. To rebuild the engine and correct from a bore score situation, many key parts are needed to be reused. If I had ignored the warning signs and not found the issue, the internal damages would of led to complete block failure and far more expense down the road.
I also could of flipped the car at that time, but I am not comfortable with selling the car without passing on the knowledge of its engine. The financial loss was also not acceptable, to sell with engine failure known, and then be without a 911. So I elected to get mine fixed. The finanical loss is still there (due to the expense of the rebuild) but I end up with the car I want and with a better/fresh engine.
And yes, selling once you know this would be a little underhanded. You and I on the same page here
Cheers
01-15-2017, 07:27 PM
#12
Drifting
01-15-2017, 07:31 PM
#13
Instructor
Thread Starter
To answer a few of the "why didn't you search?" Silly newbie, don't waste our forum space type of responses...
My reading of this forum seems to indicate that bore scoring instances are increasing in these cars as they age. This is just my opinion, and i thought perhaps others may have the same concerns and would like to chime in.
For those that have a problem with the posting, simply ignore it.
This is supposed to be a an enthusiast forum and place for Q&A and mutual love of these cars, not a place to chastise.
In the future, I'll stick to quality questions such as "Should I install Lambo doors"
My reading of this forum seems to indicate that bore scoring instances are increasing in these cars as they age. This is just my opinion, and i thought perhaps others may have the same concerns and would like to chime in.
For those that have a problem with the posting, simply ignore it.
This is supposed to be a an enthusiast forum and place for Q&A and mutual love of these cars, not a place to chastise.
In the future, I'll stick to quality questions such as "Should I install Lambo doors"
01-15-2017, 07:32 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Stop worrying about bore scoring. The incidents are few and far between.
Drive it, change oil frequently and it will be fine. And if the bad happens to you, the upside is a performance rebuild that will be terrific.
Drive it, change oil frequently and it will be fine. And if the bad happens to you, the upside is a performance rebuild that will be terrific.
01-15-2017, 07:42 PM
#15
Drifting
To answer a few of the "why didn't you search?" Silly newbie, don't waste our forum space type of responses...
My reading of this forum seems to indicate that bore scoring instances are increasing in these cars as they age. This is just my opinion, and i thought perhaps others may have the same concerns and would like to chime in.
For those that have a problem with the posting, simply ignore it.
This is supposed to be a an enthusiast forum and place for Q&A and mutual love of these cars, not a place to chastise.
In the future, I'll stick to quality questions such as "Should I install Lambo doors"
My reading of this forum seems to indicate that bore scoring instances are increasing in these cars as they age. This is just my opinion, and i thought perhaps others may have the same concerns and would like to chime in.
For those that have a problem with the posting, simply ignore it.
This is supposed to be a an enthusiast forum and place for Q&A and mutual love of these cars, not a place to chastise.
In the future, I'll stick to quality questions such as "Should I install Lambo doors"
You asked about options, costs etc and there are a ton of recent threads on this.