I agree with both statements. I just picked up a 997.2 S with 39k miles in manual. Took me about 8 months to find one in the colors I wanted and I noticed that the prices were slowly creeping up over that time.

 

Congrats - sounds like a killer deal. How'd you find / where'd you find? Manual at market or a deal seems especially elusive..

 

I found it at Tom Wood Porsche in Indianapolis. Bought it before they even got pictures up on the website. One owner car with maintenance records and clean carfax. Just be patient, one will pop up!

 

This is quite a dilemma, I would be satisfied with a 3.6L and happy to pay less but want to get the $10k extra premium in resale. Yeah the base model is good enough for me, I just want to have some fun on the road and not on the track. What do you think of the 997.1 base model? Thank you for your feedback by the way.

 

997.1 is a great car, and they may be a better value than 997.2 right now because the 997.2 is really holding its value. But I think there is good reason in that and the 997.2 is a better car with the 9A1 engine and other upgrades. It's kind of like the S debate... pay $10k more now and have a better car, and hopefully recoup all/most of that upon resale.

 

Plus the S gets PASM standard.

 

Well said- I see the 997.1 as a better value than the 997.2, although someone who is very worried about potential IMS bearing issues would likely disagree. I think the current frenzy for 997.2 GTS and S cars will die down as the 991 becomes more accepted and cheaper. Time will also tell if those buying Carrera GTSs for $75k will recoup their money.

 

I don't know where to begin dissecting you post, as I disagree with almost all of it.

If you add the two aftermarket (DSC and sway bar) suspension upgrades to a 997S or 4S, and also add in the X51 power kit (a unicorn option), you are really not comparing the price of a "high 50's" S/4S with a "$75k" 997 GTS, are you?

If you subtract the cost of all the upgrades on the "$76,900" aqua blue 997 GTS you "would have paid a premium for"- it would still sell in the mid-$70k range. The HRE wheels alone are a $5-9K cost, the Techart wing and and Maxflo bring it well over $12K. So, are you basically claiming that anyone paying over $65K for that 22K mile 997GTS is overpaying? The market doesn't bear this out. If that aqua blue one lacks the more desirable (and rarer) RWD and 6MT, the numbers are even more compelling against the valuations you provided. Of course, we are talking generalities here, not specific build sheets, which can alter any assessment.

The last of the youngest 997 GTS car will age out of CPO later this year- so getting that in a package would figure very low in my assessment of a 997 GTS' value.

I actually prefer the shorter wheelbase of the 997 over the 991 GTS. Porsche added rear wheel steering and torque vectoring to compensate for the extra 4 inches- which is indicative of something lost in the chassis evolution that had to be compensated for. Gained some stability and more forward engine placement, though. The e-steering and 7MT gearbox are subjects for another discussion, but suffice to say there are a myriad of reasons, including styling, to prefer the 997 over the 991.1 GTS. Not sure about quantifying "involving or fun to drive"- but the GT3 Touring and 911R are not solutions to a perceived problem, buyers are voting with their wallets for 6MT and a more analogue experience.

Since Sep 2016, I have driven a 997 GTS (6MT/LSD/SPORT CHRONO) for over 15K miles across the US and Canada (non-interstate), down the entire Pacific Coast Highway and in the last 6 months on almost every enthusiast oriented road in California. It is my baseline comparing it with three 45-60 minute 991.1 GTS (7MT/PTV) road test drives I took in the Malibu Canyons of SoCal. One car had Power Steering Plus, so it was not exactly apples to apples evaluating the driving differences between the three of them and my 997 GTS.

I cannot say that the 22hp increase was noticeable to me, and I have driven the same vertically demanding canyon roads (Mullholland Highway/Piuma and Latigo Canyon Roads) over 100 times in my 997 GTS. Maybe on a track straightaway, I would appreciate having that extra bit. But I never fret over allowing the revs drop a bit below 4000 in my 997, that's for sure.

The 991.1 GTS uses electronic aids to shorten the wheelbase (turn radius), especially the low speed action of the RWS. But it still feels like a bigger car. The PDCC and SPASM are awesome, but the ride was far rougher than I could/would-want-to live with on less than perfect public roads. (I am not sure how much the 20" wheels contributed to the "worse" ride.) Disappointingly (!) the 991's grip is so superior, it never let me explore the handling limits that I probe often in my 997. That is not as much fun, but how can I possibly count that as a fault?

The 991.1 cockpit layout and PCM connectivity was a light year of improvement over the 997 GTS. That alone is almost worth upgrading to a 991. But the parking e-brake is a sad replacement for the cable operated one 911's have had since '63. Steering wheel e-adjustment is too saloon for me, as well. The rev matching exhaust burbling on overrun was very cool, and you can turn it off in town. But, sadly, it seems heel and toeing is now a lost art, even with a MT.

Well, I've typed plenty, probably more than anyone cares to read. I welcome your critique of my critique, however.

Oh, almost forgot- show me even one example of a non-history "At $85k, you are looking at a loaded higher mile 991 GTS...".
I have seen only one asking below $90K, and I look almost every day.

 

As someone who has been very specifically shopping GTS due to the power bump over S (and still thinks the GTS is underpowered,) and having discussed rough costing with respected performance shops?

HELL NO you are not talking "high 50's". You aren't even talking "$75k GTS" money. One, X51 is a unicorn, and it definitely seems like the examples are being hoarded by collectors. But it's a unicorn you can have installed! Problem solved, right? Wrong. If the ONLY upgrade you make is buying the X51 kit? Just the parts are $14k at Suncoast. For just the parts. Then installing it? That's basically an engine rebuild. Congratulations! It only cost you somewhere above $20k to void out your CPO for half a GTS!

And that's the cheapest route to reliable 400HP. Now you only need springs, sway bars, PCM3.0, and the rear half of a 4S if you didn't start with one. Plus the stuff you'd also need to upgrade on the GTS too. Soon as I saw what was in the X51 package, I tossed the idea of building an S up right in the trash. Mister calculator does not lie - making an S into a 'better GTS' will very quickly turn that $60k bargain into a $90k+ project. And funny thing, having a pile of aftermarket parts in the engine bay with no warranty affects resale the opposite direction you generally want it to go.

But if you aren't going to actually push the car, then I certainly wouldn't hesitate to agree that the GTS premium isn't worth it. Hell, it's probably not worth it for most folks who only do the occasional DE. That premium won't buy you a lot of motor, but it'll buy you a LOT of suspension. And that's better than motor. (Plus, you can brag about not getting suckered into CLs. They suck on everything.)

And funny thing about the $80k+ 997.2 GTSes I've seen, pre-BAT lunacy... every last one was CPO, with extremely low miles, 6MT, and in flawless condition. (Or they were being offered by somebody even I could see was smoking crack.) Whether they had a $103k or $123k sticker. 997.2 C2Ses and C4Ses with 12k miles, CPO, and a charmed life aren't exactly going for $50k. But if you're willing to wait for the right one and move really fast, some 997.2 GTSes are popping up below 70. Well. Popped.

 

https://www.autobahngallery.com/vehi...8d00d5f6cc92a8

Seems like a decent deal for a 2011.. I have seen 09s in this price range but 2011+ are usually in the mid 60s

 

Black on black S with sports chrono and Turbo II wheels is very nice assuming no wrecks and all services and maintenance issues are reasonably up to date.

 

Finally saw a 997.2 base MT coupe show up – it's a 2010, black on black, clean carfax, 49k miles, at a Porsche dealer. Options are minimal:
Base - 911 Carrera
267 - Self Dimming Mirrors
342 - Heated Seats
405 - 19" Carrera Classic Wheel
446 - Wheel Caps With Colored Crest
480 - Manual Transmission
619 - Bluetooth Interface For Mobile Phone
672 - Navigation Module For PCM
680 - BOSE High End Sound Package
810 - Floor Mats In Interior Color
870 - Universal Audio Interface
A1 - Black
AN - Black Standard Leather
P15 - Power Comfort Seats With Driver Memory

What's a fair or good price?

 

I'd say mid-40s if it's super clean. A little wear and tear, low-40s due to mileage.

 

I don't like that aftermarket speaker install, otherwise its a decent price.

 

Asking price is $44,500, so your analysis seems right on target with their pricing.

EDIT: car was already sold.

This is the 3rd time in as many weeks that I see a car on the Porsche national pre-owned website, email about it the moment it comes up, and the car is already sold...