not sure what saved my ass "literally", but....
01-09-2013, 02:51 PM
#61
Drifting
Honestly, speed has nothing to do with it- especially not on the highway where you might just as well be driving an F-350 as a 911 if all you're doing is holding 80-100.
If PSM is engaging on the highway, you're doing something HORRIBLY wrong!
NOT, you should consider inadvertent PSB (stability OR TC) as a "shot across the bow", notification/warning of roadbed conditions of which you were not aware.
A lot of cars can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds; not too many can do that around a 90 degree corner coming off a stoplight, and be over the speed limit by the time you clear the intersection, though! That's the sort of thing I was referring to when I mentioned squealing tires or seeing PSM engage; I'd like to think I'm a good enough driver to do this without risking spinning out. If PSM has to save my ***, I clearly didn't do it properly. It's rare that PSM has to save my ***, but I always take it very seriously when it does.
Exactly, well stated.
What we're talking about comes into play during cornering- twisties, for example, which have a lot of blind corners. I'll late-brake and pull better than 1.2gees on the track with my normal street tires, but you'd be a fool to try that on public roads- one patch of gravel, and it's all over. For another thing, while we may be very comfortable with our cars' handling, it tends to frighten other drivers. For instance, most people are so used to slowing down a half mile in advance of a stoplight that using proper brake points
seems to freak people out
When I have pasengers on board, SO mostly, my 911 driving style DIFFERS, greatly.
and cause them to do stupid things.
Bottom line: enjoy your car, but give yourself a nice safe margin. 7/10ths in a 911 is better than 7/10s in damned near everything else on the road. Save 10/10ths for autocross.
If PSM is engaging on the highway, you're doing something HORRIBLY wrong!
NOT, you should consider inadvertent PSB (stability OR TC) as a "shot across the bow", notification/warning of roadbed conditions of which you were not aware.
A lot of cars can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds; not too many can do that around a 90 degree corner coming off a stoplight, and be over the speed limit by the time you clear the intersection, though! That's the sort of thing I was referring to when I mentioned squealing tires or seeing PSM engage; I'd like to think I'm a good enough driver to do this without risking spinning out. If PSM has to save my ***, I clearly didn't do it properly. It's rare that PSM has to save my ***, but I always take it very seriously when it does.
Exactly, well stated.
What we're talking about comes into play during cornering- twisties, for example, which have a lot of blind corners. I'll late-brake and pull better than 1.2gees on the track with my normal street tires, but you'd be a fool to try that on public roads- one patch of gravel, and it's all over. For another thing, while we may be very comfortable with our cars' handling, it tends to frighten other drivers. For instance, most people are so used to slowing down a half mile in advance of a stoplight that using proper brake points
seems to freak people out
When I have pasengers on board, SO mostly, my 911 driving style DIFFERS, greatly.
and cause them to do stupid things.
Bottom line: enjoy your car, but give yourself a nice safe margin. 7/10ths in a 911 is better than 7/10s in damned near everything else on the road. Save 10/10ths for autocross.
01-09-2013, 03:05 PM
#62
Drifting
Engine dethrottling for either.
01-09-2013, 03:12 PM
#63
Drifting
I am not sure the light always comes on immediately. I have felt my car "correct itself" in slippery conditions (like snow the past week) and the light only seems to come on if it intervenes for a noticable period of time. Maybe I am wrong
The light ALWAYS comes on but given the conditions under which it does you often are paying attention to matters of more immediate interest.
Anyways no harm done and you prob only hit a patch of dust or something. Happens to us all. The important thing is you didnt put yourself in serious distress.
My comments on PSM habits was not directed at you (or anyone in particular). Rather just a general comment that with the advent of PSM or any stability control program people sometimes rely on them too much and can put themselves in situations that no stability control can help with. In the past if you knew it wasnt there at least I tended to think before putting the pedal down a little further
Safe driving
The light ALWAYS comes on but given the conditions under which it does you often are paying attention to matters of more immediate interest.
Anyways no harm done and you prob only hit a patch of dust or something. Happens to us all. The important thing is you didnt put yourself in serious distress.
My comments on PSM habits was not directed at you (or anyone in particular). Rather just a general comment that with the advent of PSM or any stability control program people sometimes rely on them too much and can put themselves in situations that no stability control can help with. In the past if you knew it wasnt there at least I tended to think before putting the pedal down a little further
Safe driving
01-09-2013, 03:25 PM
#64
Drifting
Rubber compounds are different; summer compounds are designed to be soft and pliable at higher temperatures and can be rock hard in the cold.
"..soft and pliable..." Urban legend..well, sort of....was true back in the 60-70 era, but no more.
Some summer tires will actually crack if you try to drive them on too cold of a day!
I actually notice that effect more often the more toward winter specialty use a tire design is.....Mudders most especially.
You won't be getting much grip in ice either way, but you'd still be better off on ice with a softer compound that offered more grip at cool temperatures.
So, on ice, a softer compound summer tire with the extra CSA should be my preference? What if I make my summer tires more "pliable" via lowering the tire pressure?
Driving around on summer tires in the winter will build up some heat in them so they'll generally get up to reasonable temps and grip OK even on a cold day, but those first few miles are gonna be sketchy.
"..soft and pliable..." Urban legend..well, sort of....was true back in the 60-70 era, but no more.
Some summer tires will actually crack if you try to drive them on too cold of a day!
I actually notice that effect more often the more toward winter specialty use a tire design is.....Mudders most especially.
You won't be getting much grip in ice either way, but you'd still be better off on ice with a softer compound that offered more grip at cool temperatures.
So, on ice, a softer compound summer tire with the extra CSA should be my preference? What if I make my summer tires more "pliable" via lowering the tire pressure?
Driving around on summer tires in the winter will build up some heat in them so they'll generally get up to reasonable temps and grip OK even on a cold day, but those first few miles are gonna be sketchy.
01-09-2013, 04:31 PM
#65
Drifting
I run summer tires year-round and have measured my tire temperature on cold mornings; after 20 miles in sub-freezing temps, they had warmed to around 80F. Which is cooler than optimal, but enough that they grip better than a good all-season in the same conditions. Worthless once snow starts falling, though.
Last edited by sjfehr; 01-09-2013 at 05:27 PM.
01-09-2013, 04:52 PM
#66
A while back I was tracking my car with pagid yellow brake pads. They had a very distinctive squeal when up to temperature. When heading into a turn too fast, I remember hearing the squeal sound from the back of the car, but no PSM light on the dash. I assumed PSM was hitting the outside rear brake to correct for turn in oversteer. I have no way of knowing for sure, this is just a theory that fits my observation. The effect was very subtle. I used it as a learning tool, smoothing out the entry into that particular corner. Ultimately this made me a better driver. I think PSM is a great tool if you don't use it as a crutch.
Something else. I've read many times about how you absolutely must not back off the power when cornering a 911, otherwise you'll lose the back end. This is simply not true for the 997. I've had the cars cranked over in a turn at full throttle and had to back right off, even hit the brake. The 997 is incredibly well balanced and remains controllable. The key is to properly coordinate your throttle and steering inputs. Most of the time you just need to lighten up on the wheel. In more extreme situations you need quick, precise and *small* counter steering corrections, and you need to remove that counter steer as quickly as you apply it. Obviously the only safe place you can experiment is the racetrack but you get the point. There's a lot of margin built into the car. I don't have any track experience with the 991 but from my test drives it seems to be twitcher around the limit than the 997.
Something else. I've read many times about how you absolutely must not back off the power when cornering a 911, otherwise you'll lose the back end. This is simply not true for the 997. I've had the cars cranked over in a turn at full throttle and had to back right off, even hit the brake. The 997 is incredibly well balanced and remains controllable. The key is to properly coordinate your throttle and steering inputs. Most of the time you just need to lighten up on the wheel. In more extreme situations you need quick, precise and *small* counter steering corrections, and you need to remove that counter steer as quickly as you apply it. Obviously the only safe place you can experiment is the racetrack but you get the point. There's a lot of margin built into the car. I don't have any track experience with the 991 but from my test drives it seems to be twitcher around the limit than the 997.
01-10-2013, 08:37 AM
#67
Drifting
Thread Starter
Since it "recovered" you were well within PSM's limits, or even yours had you acted quickly with a bit of counter-steering. Porsche's stability control delays activation just long enough to give the driver time to react FIRST. Even with that slight delay PSM still worked to recover from the event, indicating you were operating well with the bounds of the roadbed traction available at the time.
01-10-2013, 03:12 PM
#68
Oversteer: Stability control makes use EXCLUSIVELY of/on the front brakes. "Outside" front brake is applied or inside front brake is "un-applied". Rear brakes are reserved to correct for plowing/understeering, slow the damn thing DOWN, while dedicating the front traction to lateral control exclusively.
Engine dethrottling for either.
Engine dethrottling for either.
01-10-2013, 03:28 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Questionable statement, lack of foundation.
Summer tires have more surface traction area.
Specialty winter tires are only of help on soft, penetrable, surfaces, feshly fallen, loose, snow, or MUD. Actually, OFTEN, detrimental due to shortage of surface contact area vs "summer" tires.
On an ice rink surface I'll put my nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use only, tires, up against ANY specialty winter tires...no studs.
Summer tires have more surface traction area.
Specialty winter tires are only of help on soft, penetrable, surfaces, feshly fallen, loose, snow, or MUD. Actually, OFTEN, detrimental due to shortage of surface contact area vs "summer" tires.
On an ice rink surface I'll put my nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use only, tires, up against ANY specialty winter tires...no studs.
Get your summers on that Ice Rink, the Winters will lap you while you stand still.
Please google this, there are multiple tests that have been done on this subject.
Look at this, I think you will change your mind going forward-
http://www.tirerack.com/videos/index...65&PID=4177995
Last edited by MessyMarvin; 01-10-2013 at 04:25 PM.
01-10-2013, 04:12 PM
#70
Questionable statement, lack of foundation.
Summer tires have more surface traction area.
Specialty winter tires are only of help on soft, penetrable, surfaces, feshly fallen, loose, snow, or MUD. Actually, OFTEN, detrimental due to shortage of surface contact area vs "summer" tires.
On an ice rink surface I'll put my nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use only, tires, up against ANY specialty winter tires...no studs.
Summer tires have more surface traction area.
Specialty winter tires are only of help on soft, penetrable, surfaces, feshly fallen, loose, snow, or MUD. Actually, OFTEN, detrimental due to shortage of surface contact area vs "summer" tires.
On an ice rink surface I'll put my nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use only, tires, up against ANY specialty winter tires...no studs.
Very amusing, but wrong.
01-10-2013, 04:38 PM
#71
Questionable statement, lack of foundation.
Summer tires have more surface traction area.
Specialty winter tires are only of help on soft, penetrable, surfaces, feshly fallen, loose, snow, or MUD. Actually, OFTEN, detrimental due to shortage of surface contact area vs "summer" tires.
On an ice rink surface I'll put my nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use only, tires, up against ANY specialty winter tires...no studs.
Summer tires have more surface traction area.
Specialty winter tires are only of help on soft, penetrable, surfaces, feshly fallen, loose, snow, or MUD. Actually, OFTEN, detrimental due to shortage of surface contact area vs "summer" tires.
On an ice rink surface I'll put my nice and quiet, comfortably riding, summer use only, tires, up against ANY specialty winter tires...no studs.
A winter tire's benefits have to due with a different tread RUBBER type that remains grippy in low temps.
Research.
Look into it.
01-10-2013, 04:46 PM
#72
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Agree, when I lived in Washington I'd change over to winter boots called Blizzards I think. The rubber is softer and the tread is designed to manage in slippery conditions. They'll wear out like a **** if you use the winter boots in the summer. The winter rubber works way better than all-season tires and I think you'd win on an ice rink with the blizzards on the Porsche vs. beefy summer boots.
01-10-2013, 05:14 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
01-10-2013, 05:14 PM
#74
Rennlist Member
01-10-2013, 05:34 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
In my experience, dedicated winters are superior to all seasons in the snow. The biggest difference is traction and importantly the ability to stop.
My RWD BMW with winters drives circles around my FWD audi in the snow and ice. I reckon it's a match for a AWD car on all seasons. It's actually a blast to drive thru the snow. The downside is wear and the winters tires are damn loud and harsh in the dry. As result, I leave BMW in the garage until it snows and use the audi in the cold dry.
The 997 is staying put in the garage till warmer days. It knows the rules. :+)
My RWD BMW with winters drives circles around my FWD audi in the snow and ice. I reckon it's a match for a AWD car on all seasons. It's actually a blast to drive thru the snow. The downside is wear and the winters tires are damn loud and harsh in the dry. As result, I leave BMW in the garage until it snows and use the audi in the cold dry.
The 997 is staying put in the garage till warmer days. It knows the rules. :+)