993997

997 Dilema. Newbie. 2005 or 2007 C2S same mileage

Sorry ahead of time for sophomoric question. If I found 2 seemingly perfect 997 c2s's and only real differences were ext color, navigation, and 10,000 dollars... what should I do? I plan to buy one tomorrow morning.

I'm very excited to get a 997S six speed. Here's specs:
2005 c2s
14k miles
navi, memory seats, sports chrono
ext leather
2007 c2s
14k miles
sport chrono
std leather

So, I love both colors. I like 05 already having pcm navi module. Of course, the 10k lower price is nice too. However, I'm thinking the 07 has many of the "bugs" worked out that were present on the 2005. '05 has full service history. 07 at non-porsche dealer.

Any thoughts? ideas? suggestions?

mgordon18

My advice to you would be twofold:

1) Wait until the last minute to ask your question here on Rennlist - Check!
2) Search this forum for "IMS failure 2005"
I wish you a happy evening of reading...

In addition, I shall now chant the sacred chants:

• The general rule is "buy the newest Porsche you can afford." However, if you like the 2005's options better, you'd best keep the extra $10K on hand in case you need a new engine down the road.
• Many would argue that 14K miles is too few for a 7 or 8 year old (depending on the actual build date) car. Low mileage cars often come with more problems due to seals drying out and water seeping in.
• Check the build date on the '05. If it's before March 2005-ish it'll have the old IMS bearing module, which is more prone to failure. Porsche updated it around March 2005.
• Even if you have the old IMS (i.e. a pre March '05 car), there is a prophylactic fix from LN Engineering. Do a search for LN Engineering. You might opt to use some of the extra $10K you're saving on that. The new, beefed up bearing module can only be reached by cracking open the whole engine, so the LN fix is not applicable.
• Even if you get the '07, there's no guarantee that the new IMS bearings won't give out. However there have been no proven reports of IMS failures on any post 2006 cars.
• Don't just go and buy a P-car. Make sure you do your homework and get get a Pre Purchase Inspection (PPI) with a DME scan (search "DME scan") from a reputable dealer or independent shop. A lot can happen to a car in 8 years. Make sure you're getting one that's been well taken care of.

Here endeth the lesson.

Lvt19672

Where can you find the build date on the car?

McCulla

mgordon18 speaks with much wisdom! My only minor edit may be that you might squirrel away $20K for the new engine (unless you invest with more success than I!). This comes from the perspective of a very early build '05 owner. TAKE YOUR TIME--LOTS OF CARS OUT THERE!

993997

mgordon18-
first of all..... I am still laughing at your #1) "check!" LOL

Okay, on the 2005- it's a a Porsche dealer in NJ (which compels me to ashamedly ask- how far are you from jack daniels). The dealer did the original pdi, sold the car, and have 20+ service records on the 05. They inspected it there and did the latest service (plugs, filters, oil, etc). Shockingly, I received a phone call yesterday from the "parts and service director at porsche" who said the car was in excellent condition. I did in fact bring up the IMS issue to him and he was going to call me back after he got with his tech to get the engine number. He did say the production date was in April of 2005. The transmission was out back in 09 for a repair.

Problem here (if not obvious) is that the "newest porsche I can afford" is at a mercedes dealership (large national chain with a "money back guarantee") but because pcar dealerships don't communicate they don't have the records. However, I did see on carfax it was sold at henessey in atlanta so I will try to call there today and beg service dept to look up the Vin.

So, even tho the 05 is older it (at least in the beginning) has more service records, pdi, and porsche dealership selling it....... sigh....

MikeBat

No need to "save $10K" for an engine. Just do the Flat 6 Innovations IMS Upgrade.

Seriously.

Zeus993

You'll find the build date on the upper right corner on the manufacture build plate on the end of the drivers door.

Iceter

Not wanting to hijack, but, I must...

I thought I'd read everything there was about the IMS problems and the information above is new to me. Is this really the case? If so, I can open my search back up to some later 997.1's. I had just thought that the occurrence on post 2005 cars was less common, but still a possibility.

rodsky

I'd get the 2007 without a doubt. Check the thread with the poll for IMS failures. Plus 14,000 miles on a 7-8 year old car is not enough. thats less than 2000 a year! I'd get the 2007 and a PPI/DME.

mgordon18

In all your reading, have you read any accounts of a failure on a MY2006+? I'm talking about a PROVEN failure where there were no other circumstances that might kill an engine. For example I've seen an '06 account where the car's been on the track, the engine blows and the techs noticed oil in/around the IMS, but I don't think I remember the IMS bearings from that engine being the definitive reason for the failure. Other than that, I've heard lots of rumors and hearsay: "I know a guy who's friend was at a dealer and they told him they had a 2008 car with a blown engine," etc.

As far as 2007+, I don't think I've ever read an account of an IMS failure on those cars. Nay-sayers will tell you that not enough cars of this vintage have reached high enough mileage levels to show up, even anecdotally. Others will say that TONS of IMS failures have occurred under warranty, so we wouldn't be hearing about them. This argument makes zero sense to me. People don't stop talking about major engine problems just because their car is under warranty.

All that being said, overall IMS failure rates seem (from what I could research) to be < 5% for all 997.1s. If the '05 rate is abnormally high (say 8%?), that means the 06+ rate has to be significantly low to keep that average under 5%. Some say the real average is down around 1%.

Anyway, I bought my late-build 2006 997S a few months ago with high confidence. I'm glad I've got a CPO car, but I'm still confident my IMS won't go.

@993997 - I'd go with the 07 over the 05. It's got more miles/year, 2 more years' worth of running updates, and you will sleep better at night. Do your own private PPI and if it passes, buy it and drive the **** out of it.

mgordon18

I would NOT trust a dealer (who is trying to sell you a car) that their inspection came out great. Of course it did! If it didn't they'd have to put money into it to fix it up. They'd rather have you do that.

If you're truly interested in this 05, set up a PPI with Cheech at Rennwerke Porsche Technicians. It's about 30 minutes from Jack Daniels Porsche. For $250 they'll tell you the truth.

What repair did they do? Was it the IMS? If so, that's actually good news. I believe it means the fix is with the upgraded equipment...

I know I told you to go with the '07 in another part of this thread, but if it's at Carmax, I'd keep looking. There are those who would argue otherwise, but I see Carmax as a dumping ground for problem P-cars.

Take your time 993997. Find the right car. When 911 shopping, I'd rather pass on a good car than jump into a bad one.

Iceter

Well, saying that there are no post-2006 IMS failures and saying that your estimated percentage is lower than '05 are two entirely different (and conflicting) things. Unfortunately, the IMS poll on this forum doesn't break the faiures into year-model (if it does, I apologize but I missed it). So even going by that sample, there's no way to make an estimate of how the failures have gone down since the changes Porsche made in 2005-2006. ...and honestly, I can't think of a better place to go for this kind of information, so if it isn't here, it can't be found without hacking some computers in Stuttgart.

I only asked the question because in my search, I have slowly moved over to looking at 2009 and later cars, and the IMS threat is a part of that decision. If I, or anyone here could quantify how much the IMS threat was reduced after 2006, I'd certainly like to know about it because it could widen my search back out to a much higher population of cars.

pissedpuppy

sorry, but that's BAD advice, you alluding to the fact that's definitely going to happen, and that's just flat out wrong

he may need a new engine down the road in the later model car as well, or in a 997.2 or 991

Marlon Targa 86

I bought my 2006 997 S at a Mercedes dealership. Great transaction. I didn't care whether the car was at a non Porsche dealership.

As far as IMS goes: unfortunately that myth is out there and affects resale value. Whether the myth is true or not... doesn't matter any more.

sbpsu354

I'd probably aim for the 07 and buy an aftermarket warranty. There are lots of opinions on warranties, but they've worked well for me. As long as the motor is covered, the peace of mind is awesome.