Porsche eats caviar, we drive their time bombs. Vent. Long.
10-30-2011, 01:17 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 0
Received 352 Likes
on
183 Posts
The reality is that this is not a new issue. Engine design flaws have been with the 911 in nearly every iteration. Premature valve guide wear, chain tensioner failure, cylinder head seals, 2.7 liter engines that failed at 30K miles, 993 engines that required valve jobs before 70K miles, and now the intermediate shaft bearing failures of the 996 and 997 engines. The list goes on and on. And in many cases of those older air cooled engines, the problems were pervasive, affecting a majority of engines versus a small minority with today's modern water cooled versions. And recall that way back in the day Porsche warranty was 1 year/12,000 miles!
So like it or not, Porsche has a proven business model here. Build a highly desirable car with incredible performance, generate extreme levels of brand loyalty, and the majority of buyers will overlook the legitimate potential for mechanical flaws.
I am one of them. I did a lot of research before I purchased my 997. I knew going in that the IMS was a potential trouble area. And I considered not buying one, even though I had been smitten by the 911 since I was a teenager. Ultimately I bought one. I was willing to take the risk so that I could drive my dream car. Not an ideal situation. But Porsche had me hooked. Along with tens of thousands of other buyers.
Yes I wish I had no fear of my engine failing. Luckily, so far so good. But congrats to Porsche for building a brand that can continue to thrive and grow in spite of some shortcomings along the way. I love my Porsche.
So like it or not, Porsche has a proven business model here. Build a highly desirable car with incredible performance, generate extreme levels of brand loyalty, and the majority of buyers will overlook the legitimate potential for mechanical flaws.
I am one of them. I did a lot of research before I purchased my 997. I knew going in that the IMS was a potential trouble area. And I considered not buying one, even though I had been smitten by the 911 since I was a teenager. Ultimately I bought one. I was willing to take the risk so that I could drive my dream car. Not an ideal situation. But Porsche had me hooked. Along with tens of thousands of other buyers.
Yes I wish I had no fear of my engine failing. Luckily, so far so good. But congrats to Porsche for building a brand that can continue to thrive and grow in spite of some shortcomings along the way. I love my Porsche.
10-30-2011, 06:53 PM
#62
The reality is that this is not a new issue. Engine design flaws have been with the 911 in nearly every iteration. Premature valve guide wear, chain tensioner failure, cylinder head seals, 2.7 liter engines that failed at 30K miles, 993 engines that required valve jobs before 70K miles, and now the intermediate shaft bearing failures of the 996 and 997 engines. The list goes on and on. And in many cases of those older air cooled engines, the problems were pervasive, affecting a majority of engines versus a small minority with today's modern water cooled versions. And recall that way back in the day Porsche warranty was 1 year/12,000 miles!
So like it or not, Porsche has a proven business model here. Build a highly desirable car with incredible performance, generate extreme levels of brand loyalty, and the majority of buyers will overlook the legitimate potential for mechanical flaws.
I am one of them. I did a lot of research before I purchased my 997. I knew going in that the IMS was a potential trouble area. And I considered not buying one, even though I had been smitten by the 911 since I was a teenager. Ultimately I bought one. I was willing to take the risk so that I could drive my dream car. Not an ideal situation. But Porsche had me hooked. Along with tens of thousands of other buyers.
Yes I wish I had no fear of my engine failing. Luckily, so far so good. But congrats to Porsche for building a brand that can continue to thrive and grow in spite of some shortcomings along the way. I love my Porsche.
So like it or not, Porsche has a proven business model here. Build a highly desirable car with incredible performance, generate extreme levels of brand loyalty, and the majority of buyers will overlook the legitimate potential for mechanical flaws.
I am one of them. I did a lot of research before I purchased my 997. I knew going in that the IMS was a potential trouble area. And I considered not buying one, even though I had been smitten by the 911 since I was a teenager. Ultimately I bought one. I was willing to take the risk so that I could drive my dream car. Not an ideal situation. But Porsche had me hooked. Along with tens of thousands of other buyers.
Yes I wish I had no fear of my engine failing. Luckily, so far so good. But congrats to Porsche for building a brand that can continue to thrive and grow in spite of some shortcomings along the way. I love my Porsche.
Tom
10-30-2011, 09:17 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
With all your worries, and active campaign in open forums, re oil consumption and RMS/IMS problems in your engine series, time to change is NOW. 
You'll surely find an AM, Audi, BMW, F-car, Lotus (in alphabetical order) to suit your taste, performance requirements, reliability and maintenance costs expectations.
You'll surely find an AM, Audi, BMW, F-car, Lotus (in alphabetical order) to suit your taste, performance requirements, reliability and maintenance costs expectations.Secondly, I am still under warranty, BUT, as soon that's done, I WILL look into alternatives, and will monitor DFI issues and 991.
10-30-2011, 09:26 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Alex,
Please show me documented proof that your statement above is, in fact, true.
It appears that you have made a conjecture based upon a dozen or so posts of DFI engines that consume oil at a rapid rate. That part I am OK with, because you certainly are entitled to your opinion. However, when you try to pass your conjecture/opinion off as a statement of FACT, that is when I have to take issue.
So again, please show me documented proof that your statement above is, in fact, true. I would like to see sample size of both DFI and non-DFI engines, the length of the study, how they measured the amount of oil consumed, who did the sampling, etc., etc., etc.
If you can not produce such data proving your conjecture, in the future, please state this as your opinion, not as fact.
BTW, I agree with your opinion that Porsche should do a better job of taking care of major design and manufacturing issues.
Please show me documented proof that your statement above is, in fact, true.
It appears that you have made a conjecture based upon a dozen or so posts of DFI engines that consume oil at a rapid rate. That part I am OK with, because you certainly are entitled to your opinion. However, when you try to pass your conjecture/opinion off as a statement of FACT, that is when I have to take issue.
So again, please show me documented proof that your statement above is, in fact, true. I would like to see sample size of both DFI and non-DFI engines, the length of the study, how they measured the amount of oil consumed, who did the sampling, etc., etc., etc.
If you can not produce such data proving your conjecture, in the future, please state this as your opinion, not as fact.
BTW, I agree with your opinion that Porsche should do a better job of taking care of major design and manufacturing issues.
Secondly, I don't have time to go look and provide documentation to make *you* happy... if at some point I had extra time that I couldn't spend with my family, travel, make money, drive/track my car, or have other sorts of fun, I will give you some stats!
I am done stating the obvious, due to you 3-4 guys insecurity, I've actually been very careful with my words, and have said *some .2 cars have reported X* and have been careful not to group all of DFI engines together as I HATE immature flaming all over Rennlist by supposedly mature folks.
You think there is NO excessive oil consumption in .2 cars? Fine! You got lucky, you car had the right assembly and I am happy for you. Too bad the poor guy that has to add 1 quart of oil every 600 miles, and Porsche doesn't do JACK for him!
I tune out now...
10-30-2011, 10:04 PM
#65
Nordschleife Master
Are you sure we are the insecure? Those of us who have countered your fantasy claims have engines with no oil consumption - ZERO. Who is insecure?
The point is that PAG does not do anything either if your car 997.1, or 996, or 993, or 964, or 3.2SC, and on, and on, use oil - and yes, some of those have always used oil. That IS the point. It is not endemic to a particular series of boxer engines. The oil consumption distribution function (if you know what that is) of PAG boxer engines has been virtually the same over 50 years. Our reaction to your posts is to make the record straight as you insist this is a new behavior. NOT!
Last edited by ADias; 10-30-2011 at 11:17 PM.
10-30-2011, 10:30 PM
#66
I seriously DO NOT UNDERSTAND why you 3-4 guys are SO SENSETIVE and defensive that some .2 cars have been consuming oil like crazy?! Are you afraid that such fact could affect the resale of your cars or something? Seriously?
Secondly, I don't have time to go look and provide documentation to make *you* happy... if at some point I had extra time that I couldn't spend with my family, travel, make money, drive/track my car, or have other sorts of fun, I will give you some stats!
I am done stating the obvious, due to you 3-4 guys insecurity, I've actually been very careful with my words, and have said *some .2 cars have reported X* and have been careful not to group all of DFI engines together as I HATE immature flaming all over Rennlist by supposedly mature folks.
You think there is NO excessive oil consumption in .2 cars? Fine! You got lucky, you car had the right assembly and I am happy for you. Too bad the poor guy that has to add 1 quart of oil every 600 miles, and Porsche doesn't do JACK for him!
I tune out now...
Secondly, I don't have time to go look and provide documentation to make *you* happy... if at some point I had extra time that I couldn't spend with my family, travel, make money, drive/track my car, or have other sorts of fun, I will give you some stats!
I am done stating the obvious, due to you 3-4 guys insecurity, I've actually been very careful with my words, and have said *some .2 cars have reported X* and have been careful not to group all of DFI engines together as I HATE immature flaming all over Rennlist by supposedly mature folks.
You think there is NO excessive oil consumption in .2 cars? Fine! You got lucky, you car had the right assembly and I am happy for you. Too bad the poor guy that has to add 1 quart of oil every 600 miles, and Porsche doesn't do JACK for him!
I tune out now...
10-30-2011, 10:30 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: West Los Angeles & Truckee, CA
Posts: 4,000
Received 856 Likes
on
583 Posts
Well you keep stating that you hate the 991 and that you are the authority on the supposed 997.2 excessive oil consumption, so looks like you're SOL as far as Porsches go. I'd suggest Audi, they make a 4WD sports car.
10-30-2011, 11:00 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I assume you did not do your due-diligence prior to buying a used Porsche? Neither did I when I bought a 1990 C4, the vehicle with many faults. I too was pissed off when I found out that a commonly replaced part used to be sold for $400 in the '90s, now sells for over $4000, as the stock is diminishing. But I did not start trashing the brand. I blamed myself for spending lots of family money on a toy without any research whatsoever. I simply sold the car. I did not buy a 997.1 because I wanted a worry-free Porsche. I realized later, that may never happen. Why? Because that is what Lexuses are for: big motor designed for very moderate power output , settled into a cushy platform, driven very carefully by most of it's drivers. A car like that will last much longer than a complete opposite. So stop your wining sell the Porsche and buy a Lexus. And take Alex with you. That's right, Alex, my 997.2 DOES NOT CONSUME ANY OIL! And neither do most of the .2 cars. Stop spreading a false rumor before PAG sends you a cease and desist letter.
10-30-2011, 11:30 PM
#69
I seriously DO NOT UNDERSTAND why you 3-4 guys are SO SENSETIVE and defensive that some .2 cars have been consuming oil like crazy?! Are you afraid that such fact could affect the resale of your cars or something? Seriously?
Secondly, I don't have time to go look and provide documentation to make *you* happy... if at some point I had extra time that I couldn't spend with my family, travel, make money, drive/track my car, or have other sorts of fun, I will give you some stats!
I am done stating the obvious, due to you 3-4 guys insecurity, I've actually been very careful with my words, and have said *some .2 cars have reported X* and have been careful not to group all of DFI engines together as I HATE immature flaming all over Rennlist by supposedly mature folks.
You think there is NO excessive oil consumption in .2 cars? Fine! You got lucky, you car had the right assembly and I am happy for you. Too bad the poor guy that has to add 1 quart of oil every 600 miles, and Porsche doesn't do JACK for him!
I tune out now...
Secondly, I don't have time to go look and provide documentation to make *you* happy... if at some point I had extra time that I couldn't spend with my family, travel, make money, drive/track my car, or have other sorts of fun, I will give you some stats!
I am done stating the obvious, due to you 3-4 guys insecurity, I've actually been very careful with my words, and have said *some .2 cars have reported X* and have been careful not to group all of DFI engines together as I HATE immature flaming all over Rennlist by supposedly mature folks.
You think there is NO excessive oil consumption in .2 cars? Fine! You got lucky, you car had the right assembly and I am happy for you. Too bad the poor guy that has to add 1 quart of oil every 600 miles, and Porsche doesn't do JACK for him!
I tune out now...
10-30-2011, 11:40 PM
#70
Intermediate
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Love it!
Hey Alex: don't leave, keep it going! I absolutely LOVE seeing these 911 geeks getting all offended when you point out a potential flaw in their goddess. So fascinating watching these guys freak out.
10-31-2011, 12:31 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,457
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My '10 car has over 28K miles on it and i drive it all year round in any weather. It isnt my goddess and i am not a geek. The flaws aren't potential. They are existing and very real. The point I was trying to make is that if one wants to drive a high performance sports car, please understand that longevity isn't going to be it's strong point. It isn't in Lambos. It isn't in Ferraris. And, I am sure, it will not be in that stupidly-expensive Lexus hypercar.
What does surprise me though, is that people trash something on-line and then blame it's manufacturer for artificially low resale values. The OP does not even have an issue with his vehicle, yet this thread is having direct affect on the amount of money he gets back for his car someday. People read these threads (unlike the OP) and decide not to buy these cars, driving the resale values down. If the IMS problem wasn't addressed by PAG until now, it sure isn't going to change just 'cause people cry on some forum. My message is: Stop crying. Buy a different car.
10-31-2011, 12:43 AM
#73
Newbies Hospitality Director
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 18,084
Likes: 0
Received 34 Likes
on
33 Posts
Alex,
I didn't say no 997.2 cars consumed too much oil. I agree that some 997.22 cars consume too much oil by any normal standard, except the Porsche standard. However, I also know that some 997.1 also consume more oil than they should, and Dan's car (Edgy01) is one of them. But because Dan has reported high oil usage it doesn't mean that ALL 997.1 cars use too much oil.
Yes, this time you said "some cars." However, you have posted more than once that DFI cars use more oil that 997.1 cars, but you have no solid proof. I can find those posts if you need a reminder.
However, you are missing the point. This isn't about DFI oil consumption. It is about your tendency to pass your opinions off as fact. THAT's what I have an issue with.
I didn't say no 997.2 cars consumed too much oil. I agree that some 997.22 cars consume too much oil by any normal standard, except the Porsche standard. However, I also know that some 997.1 also consume more oil than they should, and Dan's car (Edgy01) is one of them. But because Dan has reported high oil usage it doesn't mean that ALL 997.1 cars use too much oil.
Yes, this time you said "some cars." However, you have posted more than once that DFI cars use more oil that 997.1 cars, but you have no solid proof. I can find those posts if you need a reminder.
However, you are missing the point. This isn't about DFI oil consumption. It is about your tendency to pass your opinions off as fact. THAT's what I have an issue with.
10-31-2011, 09:19 AM
#74
Rennlist Member
I see where the OP is coming from and it was definitely a consideration I had to accept when looking for my first 911; am I willing to let Porsche's reputation of engine failures prevent me from getting a 911?
I bought my 911. I don't think the issues of engine failures are as prevalent as suggested and whether or not Porsche wishes to honor these failures is hard to determine as well. Do we have firm stats of users here on Rennlist as to how many of us have been privy to both:
a) failure of any sort
and
b) Porsche either fixing the situation or not
I bought my 911. I don't think the issues of engine failures are as prevalent as suggested and whether or not Porsche wishes to honor these failures is hard to determine as well. Do we have firm stats of users here on Rennlist as to how many of us have been privy to both:
a) failure of any sort
and
b) Porsche either fixing the situation or not
10-31-2011, 01:10 PM
#75
Drifting
Boy do folks get spun up about issues close to their hearts. Human nature.
Corporations will almost always choose profit over quality and customer satisfaction. If a company can continue to see more product to more people and generate more profit with lower quality, why wouldn't they do that. The shareholders would pound management with a hammer if they didn't.
That said, I echo what others have stated. A Porsche is a highly tuned sports car. It is designed to give you a specific type of ride and performance for the price point, and yet gives you utility that you just don't get from an AstonMartin, Ferrari, Lambo, (other higher end sports cars insert here). If you want a car that has low maintenance cost over 100k miles, low maintenance needs over 100k miles, and rock solid reliability, then you do NOT want a sports car. You want, maybe a performance sedan.
The fact that I can drive the 997.2 Targa every day, summer or winter, rain or snow or dry, have a frunk, and a hatch to slide big boxes into the back, a comfortable ride that lets me take speed bumps at something that isn't near zero, and I get all that great daylight and can see all around me. Thats worth putting a quart of oil in the engine every 1,000 miles. Its worth it every day.
Corporations will almost always choose profit over quality and customer satisfaction. If a company can continue to see more product to more people and generate more profit with lower quality, why wouldn't they do that. The shareholders would pound management with a hammer if they didn't.
That said, I echo what others have stated. A Porsche is a highly tuned sports car. It is designed to give you a specific type of ride and performance for the price point, and yet gives you utility that you just don't get from an AstonMartin, Ferrari, Lambo, (other higher end sports cars insert here). If you want a car that has low maintenance cost over 100k miles, low maintenance needs over 100k miles, and rock solid reliability, then you do NOT want a sports car. You want, maybe a performance sedan.
The fact that I can drive the 997.2 Targa every day, summer or winter, rain or snow or dry, have a frunk, and a hatch to slide big boxes into the back, a comfortable ride that lets me take speed bumps at something that isn't near zero, and I get all that great daylight and can see all around me. Thats worth putting a quart of oil in the engine every 1,000 miles. Its worth it every day.