Porsche eats caviar, we drive their time bombs. Vent. Long.
10-28-2011, 10:06 PM
#31
Nordschleife Master
There you go again... there is no extreme oil consumption of 997.2DFI engines. Not any more than M96/M97 or even Fuhrmann-era engines. You may continue to state it, but it does not make it true.
10-28-2011, 11:58 PM
#32
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While he is most certainly entitled to his opinion, I have tried to point out that his "opinion and conjecture" are not fact based truths, and he needs to stop presenting them as such. Hopefully, you will have more success that I have had.
10-29-2011, 01:14 PM
#33
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Nothing wrong with Porsche's ambition to greatly increase its sales volume, but the reports earlier this week about the poor reliability of the Cayenne dropping the brand 25 places (from second to second last) on the CR ratings are likely to be the tip of the iceberg if the company pursues sales and profits at the expense of quality.
I've come to appreciate the relatively bulletproof nature of the 911, and it would be a great shame if that quality were compromised in the pursuit of sales and profits. Good stewardship would see Porsche grow while maintaining quality, but we've seen with BMW (whose current reliability is in the crapper) and MB (who are getting back to where they once were after a period of sub-par quality) that focusing only on growth can have adverse consequences. My strong suspicion is that people are going to be a lot less willing to drop 100K and more on a 911 if Porsche lets reliability on these cars decline.
I've come to appreciate the relatively bulletproof nature of the 911, and it would be a great shame if that quality were compromised in the pursuit of sales and profits. Good stewardship would see Porsche grow while maintaining quality, but we've seen with BMW (whose current reliability is in the crapper) and MB (who are getting back to where they once were after a period of sub-par quality) that focusing only on growth can have adverse consequences. My strong suspicion is that people are going to be a lot less willing to drop 100K and more on a 911 if Porsche lets reliability on these cars decline.
10-29-2011, 01:26 PM
#34
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In my experience, my 9a1 engine consumes the equivalent or less oil than my M96 engine. Right now its not an issue at all. Over the first 5000 miles a quart every 1500-2000 miles. Now, I havent topped up since I can remember.
10-29-2011, 01:29 PM
#35
I'm sorry but I just don't get how you can knock Porsche.
Like any other Company they're in business to make money and as much money as they can. If they do it at the expense of their customers they won't be in business very long....period.
I've been driving Porsches on and off since 1987 and 911s since 1999 and I'm thrilled with both the car and the Company. I've had few problems with the cars and whenever I did and I had an engine fail, they stepped up and replaced it in a few days....a few days!
And look at the cars they build. Without Porsche to build these cars that we love where would we be? Those of you that complain about this and that with these wonderful cars can continue to do so if you want. I feel lucky that Porsche builds them and I'm oh so lucky to be able to afford them.
You can look at the glass as half empty but I choose to look at it as half full!
Tom
Like any other Company they're in business to make money and as much money as they can. If they do it at the expense of their customers they won't be in business very long....period.
I've been driving Porsches on and off since 1987 and 911s since 1999 and I'm thrilled with both the car and the Company. I've had few problems with the cars and whenever I did and I had an engine fail, they stepped up and replaced it in a few days....a few days!
And look at the cars they build. Without Porsche to build these cars that we love where would we be? Those of you that complain about this and that with these wonderful cars can continue to do so if you want. I feel lucky that Porsche builds them and I'm oh so lucky to be able to afford them.
You can look at the glass as half empty but I choose to look at it as half full!
Tom
10-29-2011, 01:51 PM
#37
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Capitalism has been around far longer than any of our lifetimes... Wall Street (since its inception) hs ALWAYS pushed for profit maximization. To assume that this is a "20 year" thing is missing the forest among the trees...
I agree that one big downside to the existing form of capitalism is the short-term reward system places on public companies. I have worked for start-ups, and both public companies large and small. What I have learned is that the bigger the company, the more beholden to Wall Street and their rules one becomes. More often than not, smart strategic planning is trumped by need to manipulate the stock price.
But with all that said, there is not a better system deployed in the world today. The problem here is that PEOPLE are flawed, and as long as PEOPLE are part of the equation, we will have to take the good with the bad. Strive for perfection, but temper expectation...
Porsche delivers a fine product. I am mad as hell that they do not address obvious recall issues, but guess what? No one else does either... I can write at length about BMW's refusal to address their fuel pump and DFI/carbon build up issues - for over 8 years. I can write at lenght about Land Rover's awful record with electrical systems, and the amount of money I have spent trying to trouble-shoot those issues with no results or apologies from the dealership. Buy another car? Well, all manufacturers have these same problems. Nothing is perfect... even man.
I agree that one big downside to the existing form of capitalism is the short-term reward system places on public companies. I have worked for start-ups, and both public companies large and small. What I have learned is that the bigger the company, the more beholden to Wall Street and their rules one becomes. More often than not, smart strategic planning is trumped by need to manipulate the stock price.
But with all that said, there is not a better system deployed in the world today. The problem here is that PEOPLE are flawed, and as long as PEOPLE are part of the equation, we will have to take the good with the bad. Strive for perfection, but temper expectation...
Porsche delivers a fine product. I am mad as hell that they do not address obvious recall issues, but guess what? No one else does either... I can write at length about BMW's refusal to address their fuel pump and DFI/carbon build up issues - for over 8 years. I can write at lenght about Land Rover's awful record with electrical systems, and the amount of money I have spent trying to trouble-shoot those issues with no results or apologies from the dealership. Buy another car? Well, all manufacturers have these same problems. Nothing is perfect... even man.
I think the US tax system though is a little unfair when large established Corporations can use every trick in the book to get out of paying taxes. Look at what Google does to move their IP ownership to Ireland and an offshore corporation and effectively pays very little tax in the US (somewhere in the 3-4% range). I'll stop there as this may degenerate into a political discourse.
Back to Porsche - they make a damn fine product. If we required it to be 100% reliable, it would cost many multiples what it does cost. Porsche should try and maximize their profits over the long haul. Quality will help them achieve this. If the 991 is not a high quality car, sales will suffer over time. Their reputation will only carry them so far. Toyota didnt become the largest car Company by having shoddy quality (I know they stumbled recently - but they are going back to their quality roots as are MB).
10-29-2011, 02:38 PM
#39
10-29-2011, 03:04 PM
#40
I had to think about what Porsche stands for, and I have to come to the conclusion that money and prestige are their motivating factors for building cars
I bought my first 911 in 1969 and the last one in 1996. I still own that 993, and I bought a Boxster S in 2007 which I still own. Back in the 60s Porsche stood for a company that excelled in racing, and they did an outstanding job of transferring the knowledge that they garnered from racing into their sports cars.
In the late 90s Porsche stumbled a little, probably because of their financial challenges. The 986 and 996 weren't up to normal Porsche standards due to their efforts to cut costs. My 987 however has been virtually trouble free after five years, and I expect that the 997 has a similar high level of quality.
So it will be interesting to see what Porsche's offerings will be now that it is part of the VW group. Given the competition, I would expect that Porsche will continue to produce sports cars that anyone would be proud to own. Maybe I'm being naive but I still believe that the primary driving force at Porsche is a desire to manufacture the best sports cars in the world, and of course in order to achieve that goal they have to be profitable.
I bought my first 911 in 1969 and the last one in 1996. I still own that 993, and I bought a Boxster S in 2007 which I still own. Back in the 60s Porsche stood for a company that excelled in racing, and they did an outstanding job of transferring the knowledge that they garnered from racing into their sports cars.
In the late 90s Porsche stumbled a little, probably because of their financial challenges. The 986 and 996 weren't up to normal Porsche standards due to their efforts to cut costs. My 987 however has been virtually trouble free after five years, and I expect that the 997 has a similar high level of quality.
So it will be interesting to see what Porsche's offerings will be now that it is part of the VW group. Given the competition, I would expect that Porsche will continue to produce sports cars that anyone would be proud to own. Maybe I'm being naive but I still believe that the primary driving force at Porsche is a desire to manufacture the best sports cars in the world, and of course in order to achieve that goal they have to be profitable.
10-29-2011, 03:04 PM
#41
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shrugging shoulders at extreme oil consumption of some .2 owners...
10-29-2011, 03:40 PM
#42
Nordschleife Master
Go ahead... keep on stating what you will, but it does not make it true.
10-29-2011, 03:41 PM
#43
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da cat posted 12-09;
April Consumer Reports (yeah, I know, I know) gives the recent 911, Boxster, and Cayenne scattered full-black (much worse than average) and half-black (worse than average) dots for "engine major" and "engine minor".
Honda and Toyota have pretty much all red dots (much better than average) for both.
Porsche had (until the VW fiasco) the highest margins of any manufacturer so I don't think replacing a few engines is going to do much to their bottom line. It would mostly amount to an annoyance under warranty and an expensive annoyance if it happens outside of warranty.
you guys are buying at least 10,000 dollars worth of engine insurance at purchase built right into the sticker...
but hell, at least you're covered during the warranty period, and you're driving the best 911 evarrr.
https://rennlist.com/forums/off-topi...-warranty.html
April Consumer Reports (yeah, I know, I know) gives the recent 911, Boxster, and Cayenne scattered full-black (much worse than average) and half-black (worse than average) dots for "engine major" and "engine minor".
Honda and Toyota have pretty much all red dots (much better than average) for both.
Porsche had (until the VW fiasco) the highest margins of any manufacturer so I don't think replacing a few engines is going to do much to their bottom line. It would mostly amount to an annoyance under warranty and an expensive annoyance if it happens outside of warranty.
you guys are buying at least 10,000 dollars worth of engine insurance at purchase built right into the sticker...
but hell, at least you're covered during the warranty period, and you're driving the best 911 evarrr.
https://rennlist.com/forums/off-topi...-warranty.html
10-29-2011, 03:52 PM
#44
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Alex: you may be as patronizing as you wish, and I could not care less. We all can read what you write... and I repeat: 997.2 DFI engines do not use any more oil (even those who do) than previous boxer engines produced by PAG since 1963.
Go ahead... keep on stating what you will, but it does not make it true.
Go ahead... keep on stating what you will, but it does not make it true.
Similarly to how IMS failures in 2005 cars are reported here and YOU agree that's an issue, there are reports of incredible oil consumption on some DFI engines, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! You just are afraid yours might end up one of those.
The facts remain. It doesn't mean DFI is a bad engine or what not, it means PORSCHE does NOT take care of their customers when they should and that is was OP was frustrated with.
10-29-2011, 04:36 PM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Whatever man, you can say all you want, there is significantly more owners with excessive oil consumption in 997.2 than 997.1....
Similarly to how IMS failures in 2005 cars are reported here and YOU agree that's an issue, there are reports of incredible oil consumption on some DFI engines, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! You just are afraid yours might end up one of those.
Similarly to how IMS failures in 2005 cars are reported here and YOU agree that's an issue, there are reports of incredible oil consumption on some DFI engines, and THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE! You just are afraid yours might end up one of those.
To those frustrated with PAG and their customer support, I suggest that they should move on to another brand, and stop wasting energy/sleep/anxiety over cars they no longer enjoy.