Porsche: Not made for the track
10-03-2011, 04:16 PM
#76
Rennlist Member
I didn't say it wasn't possible - I said it wasn't plug-and-play. For instance, the engines have different redlines, so the tach would have to be changed. And as I implied above, I have to imagine you can't screw a 9A1 - designed and programmed for a 7-speed PDK - into a 997.1 to work with a 5-speed Tiptronic. I'd be willing to bet cooling, intake, and exhausts are different between the M97 and 9A1 as well.
10-03-2011, 04:31 PM
#77
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BTW, MikeJim, could you pls tell exact manufacturing date of your car? Was it before or after June 2006? I am really cuirious to know what version of IMS bearing was in your car, if you do not know.
If you have an old PMI report it should have engine number printed in it. it was a post somethere on renntech i think where it was stating since what range of engine numbers porsche started using an updated bigger single row bearing but i cannot find it now, may be somebody here still has a link.
If you have an old PMI report it should have engine number printed in it. it was a post somethere on renntech i think where it was stating since what range of engine numbers porsche started using an updated bigger single row bearing but i cannot find it now, may be somebody here still has a link.
It's "officially" a 2006 model...a 997S. But the door panel shows 09/05 manufacture date. Does anyone know when the first 2006 models came out of the factory? This must have been one of the first.
Oh, and forget about "driving a $100,000 car." I bought it two-years-old for $68,000, and it's now worth south of $40,000...even WITH a brand new engine.
Oh, and forget about "driving a $100,000 car." I bought it two-years-old for $68,000, and it's now worth south of $40,000...even WITH a brand new engine.
10-03-2011, 05:30 PM
#78
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I had my 1999 996 IMS fail on me sitting in a parking lot at idle, reading my email. This was with 5k miles on a rebuilt engine. Car just died! The selling dealer replaced the engine under warranty. I was lucky. I purchased just recently a 06 997 with 27k miles and was happy to have a reliable DD, until I read this ;-(
10-03-2011, 05:50 PM
#79
Rennlist Member
So, ANOTHER '05 IMS Failure... NOT A SURPRISE!
Sorry for the loss... It must SUCK big time... but '05 IMS issues are very well documented. If I was in the market for 997.1, I would find a PRICED DOWN '05, and will replace the IMS with LN Engineering before I do anything.
What I recommend is to contact Suncoast, and replace your engine with an X51 engine! Might as well! MUCH MORE IMPROVED!
Sorry for the loss... It must SUCK big time... but '05 IMS issues are very well documented. If I was in the market for 997.1, I would find a PRICED DOWN '05, and will replace the IMS with LN Engineering before I do anything.
What I recommend is to contact Suncoast, and replace your engine with an X51 engine! Might as well! MUCH MORE IMPROVED!
10-03-2011, 05:52 PM
#80
Rennlist Member
I had my 1999 996 IMS fail on me sitting in a parking lot at idle, reading my email. This was with 5k miles on a rebuilt engine. Car just died! The selling dealer replaced the engine under warranty. I was lucky. I purchased just recently a 06 997 with 27k miles and was happy to have a reliable DD, until I read this ;-(
10-03-2011, 06:00 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
gaaaaaaaaad i cringe at even typing such a trite phrase.
go jump if you want to.
Craig
10-03-2011, 06:02 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
10-03-2011, 06:14 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
Since this is YET ANOTHER '05 IMS Failure, and SINCE PORSCHE changed their IMS design in mid-'06... isn't there merit for a lawsuit AND RECALL?
It makes absolutely NO SENSE to me, when Toyota had to RECALL like Millions of car due to *faulty mats* and Porsche wouldn't recall a FAULTY Engine design, that cause catastrophic engine failure.
Right now, ALL of those poor '05 owners are F*ed, no one buys '05 cars (value down the drain) and they all have to wait for that inevitable IMS failure. This is all Porsche's fault and NOT owners'!
@OP: I WILL FIGHT THIS! Ask WHY they changed their IMS design in '06, IF it was just fine in '05? They must replace your engine for free, or AT LEAST, cover the parts while you pay labour.
PS. Don't we got Powetrain warranty of 10 years? I had that warranty on my Honda, VW, and Audi before. 10 years coverage if a *Powertrain* failed.
It makes absolutely NO SENSE to me, when Toyota had to RECALL like Millions of car due to *faulty mats* and Porsche wouldn't recall a FAULTY Engine design, that cause catastrophic engine failure.
Right now, ALL of those poor '05 owners are F*ed, no one buys '05 cars (value down the drain) and they all have to wait for that inevitable IMS failure. This is all Porsche's fault and NOT owners'!
@OP: I WILL FIGHT THIS! Ask WHY they changed their IMS design in '06, IF it was just fine in '05? They must replace your engine for free, or AT LEAST, cover the parts while you pay labour.
PS. Don't we got Powetrain warranty of 10 years? I had that warranty on my Honda, VW, and Audi before. 10 years coverage if a *Powertrain* failed.
10-03-2011, 06:33 PM
#84
Rennlist Member
Thank you for the lecture.....you are indeed the enlightened one.
My comment to Rudy P had nothing to do with the track. If you are too dense to have understood that and I have to explain it to you like this than I don't know what to say.
His comment was rude, eliteist and obnoxious and one I have no frame of reference for!
I couldn't care less about who wants to track their car and who doesn't and again not one of my posts here or on any other thread would indicate that I do but if I have to explain this to you.......................oh boy
But thanks again for the lecture!
Tom
My comment to Rudy P had nothing to do with the track. If you are too dense to have understood that and I have to explain it to you like this than I don't know what to say.
His comment was rude, eliteist and obnoxious and one I have no frame of reference for!
I couldn't care less about who wants to track their car and who doesn't and again not one of my posts here or on any other thread would indicate that I do but if I have to explain this to you.......................oh boy
But thanks again for the lecture!
Tom
10-03-2011, 07:21 PM
#85
Drifting
According to the driver side door panel, the car left the factory on "09/05." So it must have been one of the very first 997 models out the door.
I bought it with 22,000 miles and put another 20,000 miles on it before taking it to the track. Those of you who know me know that the car has been driven hard for the past two years. In 2010, I did 22 DE events. This year, I've already done 20.
It's my understanding that the IMS failure can be exacerbated by high operating temperatures. In June, at Road Atlanta, a 2006 997S very similar to mine had an IMS failure. The car was giving "warning signs." High engine temps and rattling sounds before it let go. The owner, from Virginia, had to spring for a new engine. No help from Porsche.
My engine also let go at Road Atlanta...in August...under similarly hot conditions. It gave NO warning signs. I had accelerated through second gear and had just shifted up into third when the dashboard lit up and I lost power. A photographer standing nearby said the car made no noise. It just shut down. I recall hearing a brief high-pitched whirring sound for a second or two.
By the way, for those of you who think "track insurance" is the solution...you should know that insurance doesn't cover mechanical problems. And it doesn't cover liability. It just fixes the car if you crunch it (after a high deductible).
You should also know that Porsche exchanges like engines. So if you send back an M96 engine, you get an M96 engine. As far as I know, my new block has the same IMS configuration...so there's the potential that I could be buying yet another lump somewhere down the line.
I will say the car performed admirably last week at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, and I've got my fingers crossed that it continues to plug along this coming weekend for three days at Daytona International Speedway, where the engine will work at full RPM. We pulled the oil filter after Barber, and it was pristine. Maybe I got a good one this time.
Finally, I want to say that I fully understand the risks involved in tracking a car, and I accept those risks. And I also want to be clear that I LOVE my car, and I plan to keep it for a long, long time. I'm just bothered by the fact that Porsche has a KNOWN problem, yet continues to deny it...while marketing the car as being "built for the track."
I bought it with 22,000 miles and put another 20,000 miles on it before taking it to the track. Those of you who know me know that the car has been driven hard for the past two years. In 2010, I did 22 DE events. This year, I've already done 20.
It's my understanding that the IMS failure can be exacerbated by high operating temperatures. In June, at Road Atlanta, a 2006 997S very similar to mine had an IMS failure. The car was giving "warning signs." High engine temps and rattling sounds before it let go. The owner, from Virginia, had to spring for a new engine. No help from Porsche.
My engine also let go at Road Atlanta...in August...under similarly hot conditions. It gave NO warning signs. I had accelerated through second gear and had just shifted up into third when the dashboard lit up and I lost power. A photographer standing nearby said the car made no noise. It just shut down. I recall hearing a brief high-pitched whirring sound for a second or two.
By the way, for those of you who think "track insurance" is the solution...you should know that insurance doesn't cover mechanical problems. And it doesn't cover liability. It just fixes the car if you crunch it (after a high deductible).
You should also know that Porsche exchanges like engines. So if you send back an M96 engine, you get an M96 engine. As far as I know, my new block has the same IMS configuration...so there's the potential that I could be buying yet another lump somewhere down the line.
I will say the car performed admirably last week at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, and I've got my fingers crossed that it continues to plug along this coming weekend for three days at Daytona International Speedway, where the engine will work at full RPM. We pulled the oil filter after Barber, and it was pristine. Maybe I got a good one this time.
Finally, I want to say that I fully understand the risks involved in tracking a car, and I accept those risks. And I also want to be clear that I LOVE my car, and I plan to keep it for a long, long time. I'm just bothered by the fact that Porsche has a KNOWN problem, yet continues to deny it...while marketing the car as being "built for the track."
I wish you the best with the new engine.
BTW, did you get confirmation from an expert that your car did indeed experience an IMSB failure? Many other types of failures with these engines are mistakenly diagnosed, with the IMSB being the easy scapegoat.
10-03-2011, 07:41 PM
#86
Rennlist Member
Hey, we met a bunch of times. I'm the guy who had a silver .1 C2S modded to the bone and then upgraded to silver .1 GT3.
I'm sorry to hear about the engine, it happened to me as well (though mine was from miss shift). I think you wrote the number wrong, a new C2S engine without the core return couldn't be $33k! If they are asking that much you should call other dealers.
If my memory is correct a .1 engine is around $22k without a core. That was what I paid last year.
I'm sorry to hear about the engine, it happened to me as well (though mine was from miss shift). I think you wrote the number wrong, a new C2S engine without the core return couldn't be $33k! If they are asking that much you should call other dealers.
If my memory is correct a .1 engine is around $22k without a core. That was what I paid last year.
10-03-2011, 07:50 PM
#87
Rennlist Member
it is not only possible, it was already done and more than once. not as 'plug-and-play', but it is possible. and adjustnent of ECU signal bus is not that big of a deal for a big company to make it 'plug and play'. toyota went via much more expensive process to deal just with gas pedals.
I have read it somewhere on Renntrack where BGB said the same thing.
It's not so "plug and play"
10-03-2011, 08:13 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
you see, everything is doable, it is just a matter of time and resources. i think for porsche as a company it would be 3-4 months top to make some bangalor based resource to alter and QA such a code.
i only hope that if situation with M96/M97 will continue as it is some aftermarket brains like softronic or other tuners will do the same to make 9A1 to pair with 997.1 car. DFI or not DFI majority of sensors and ECUs are quite the same on 997.2 and 997.1. mechanically all mounts and weld points are also same. so it is just a matter of altering microcode in 2 ECUs. should be quite doable IMHO.
10-03-2011, 08:19 PM
#89
The Porsche driving experience might be a (costly) way to see what it is like to track a car. At least you could do it in someone else's car and get the feel of it in a couple days with an instructor that can show you how to approach the limits of the car. $ 3-4 k is a little easier to handle than 19k, if you want a taste of driving at something north of the double nickel.
10-03-2011, 08:39 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
it is true. 997.2 bus and sensors are not same. that is why i say - it has to be an alteration of ECU microcode to make it speak to 997.1 bus.
you see, everything is doable, it is just a matter of time and resources. i think for porsche as a company it would be 3-4 months top to make some bangalor based resource to alter and QA such a code.
i only hope that if situation with M96/M97 will continue as it is some aftermarket brains like softronic or other tuners will do the same to make 9A1 to pair with 997.1 car. DFI or not DFI majority of sensors and ECUs are quite the same on 997.2 and 997.1. mechanically all mounts and weld points are also same. so it is just a matter of altering microcode in 2 ECUs. should be quite doable IMHO.
you see, everything is doable, it is just a matter of time and resources. i think for porsche as a company it would be 3-4 months top to make some bangalor based resource to alter and QA such a code.
i only hope that if situation with M96/M97 will continue as it is some aftermarket brains like softronic or other tuners will do the same to make 9A1 to pair with 997.1 car. DFI or not DFI majority of sensors and ECUs are quite the same on 997.2 and 997.1. mechanically all mounts and weld points are also same. so it is just a matter of altering microcode in 2 ECUs. should be quite doable IMHO.