Porsche: Not made for the track
10-02-2011, 01:10 PM
#16
Advanced
I'm so confused about the IMS issue for the 997.1. I have heard everything from the risk being negligible to this being all too common occurrence(10% holy smokes) even in the newer engines. My sources of information include magazine articles, a well reputed Porsche mechanic and this forum. Is there real consensus on this issue or are we all just guessing in the absence of hard data?
10-02-2011, 01:14 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Does the warranty specifically state that a DE voids it? I've never heard that before...
Either way, to my mind there's a bigger issue here which is that the IMS is a known design/engineering defect. Quite frankly, it is something Porsche ought to take care of on a goodwill basis for cars that are only relatively recently out of warranty. On a 2006 MY/58,000 mile car, it's only a year or so and 8000 miles out of warranty. Porsche ought to step up when the failure is one that is one that's generally accepted to be a design defect. Every mechanical device can and will break at some point, the difference here is that this is particular issue is something that Porsche themselves designed in from the factory.
Either way, to my mind there's a bigger issue here which is that the IMS is a known design/engineering defect. Quite frankly, it is something Porsche ought to take care of on a goodwill basis for cars that are only relatively recently out of warranty. On a 2006 MY/58,000 mile car, it's only a year or so and 8000 miles out of warranty. Porsche ought to step up when the failure is one that is one that's generally accepted to be a design defect. Every mechanical device can and will break at some point, the difference here is that this is particular issue is something that Porsche themselves designed in from the factory.
10-02-2011, 01:36 PM
#19
Tommy,
There are plenty of cases of 997.1 owners happily motoring along, having never been to the track, and their IMS bearing giving way. Oh, and they were just a few months or miles out of the factory warranty. No coverage.
There are plenty of cases of 997.1 owners happily motoring along, having never been to the track, and their IMS bearing giving way. Oh, and they were just a few months or miles out of the factory warranty. No coverage.
10-02-2011, 01:37 PM
#20
Former Vendor
If you are so concerned by the Possibility (many of the dealerships we deal with would have covered that engine while the car was still under warranty) of a mechanical issue while enjoying your car on track... Then you should purchase supplemental track insurance to protect your investment.
Keep in mind, while the failure of the OP's engine is tragic and I feel his sorrow... The real issue here is that the Car was out of warranty when the engine failure occurred... No, Company will cover the loss after the warranty period expires.
Keep in mind, while the failure of the OP's engine is tragic and I feel his sorrow... The real issue here is that the Car was out of warranty when the engine failure occurred... No, Company will cover the loss after the warranty period expires.
10-02-2011, 01:47 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
wow - lot of money for a new motor
may have to part ways before end of CPO, fortunately that's a couple years off
sorry to hear about your loss
may have to part ways before end of CPO, fortunately that's a couple years off
sorry to hear about your loss
10-02-2011, 01:59 PM
#22
I am reminded that this is a community...a family...of Porsche lovers, and as surprised as I may be that someone would be content to simply drive their P-car around town and not stretch its legs (and further your own driving skills) at a track in a closed, safe, and nurturing environment, the fact remains that the Porsche is versatile enough to satisfy all tastes.
I drove my car on the street for a few years but got increasingly nervous with the reaction of other drivers. The dirty looks. The occasional aggression. I felt as if I had become little more than a Porsche Poser. One DE weekend opened my eyes to how little I knew about my own limited driving skills and the untapped potential of the car. Porsche prides itself on its rich racing history.
That is why I was shocked that the engine gave up with so few miles on it. Even more surprising was my discovery that this is a well-documented problem...a basic design flaw...that Porsche has struggled to keep hidden from car owners. A critical component of the engine was not included in the lubricating system. The metal-on-metal of the shaft bearings receive no oil...just a dab of grease in a closed fitting. Eventually, it gives out.
Of course Porsche must refuse to support engines that explode. To do otherwise would open the door to an expensive factory recall and would be an admission of the poor design. I get it. I do.
When we track a car, we assume those risks. And if you are satisfied driving your expensive machine around town in traffic, always watching out for police and trying never to exceed the speed limit...I tip my hat to you.
Driving a P-car at its limits has been the most satisfying experience of my life. It is addictive. It is instructional. It is rewarding beyond belief. I recommend it. Just know that Porsche is NOT on your side.
I drove my car on the street for a few years but got increasingly nervous with the reaction of other drivers. The dirty looks. The occasional aggression. I felt as if I had become little more than a Porsche Poser. One DE weekend opened my eyes to how little I knew about my own limited driving skills and the untapped potential of the car. Porsche prides itself on its rich racing history.
That is why I was shocked that the engine gave up with so few miles on it. Even more surprising was my discovery that this is a well-documented problem...a basic design flaw...that Porsche has struggled to keep hidden from car owners. A critical component of the engine was not included in the lubricating system. The metal-on-metal of the shaft bearings receive no oil...just a dab of grease in a closed fitting. Eventually, it gives out.
Of course Porsche must refuse to support engines that explode. To do otherwise would open the door to an expensive factory recall and would be an admission of the poor design. I get it. I do.
When we track a car, we assume those risks. And if you are satisfied driving your expensive machine around town in traffic, always watching out for police and trying never to exceed the speed limit...I tip my hat to you.
Driving a P-car at its limits has been the most satisfying experience of my life. It is addictive. It is instructional. It is rewarding beyond belief. I recommend it. Just know that Porsche is NOT on your side.
10-02-2011, 02:00 PM
#23
Race Director
Mikejim,
it sux what happened to you. I wonder if you would have had a chance it this happened OFF the track? Goodwill perhaps?
I former co-worker in the UK had an IMS failure and P replaced his non warrantied, low mile engine for free.
I've also seen mechanical and other failures at the track on warrantied cars and they were all covered despite what P said. The dealer has a lot of say here.
it sux what happened to you. I wonder if you would have had a chance it this happened OFF the track? Goodwill perhaps?
I former co-worker in the UK had an IMS failure and P replaced his non warrantied, low mile engine for free.
I've also seen mechanical and other failures at the track on warrantied cars and they were all covered despite what P said. The dealer has a lot of say here.
10-02-2011, 04:18 PM
#25
there is the value in knowing your car's weak points and adressing them at appropriate times. IMS issue is well know with both Porsche and aftermarket solutions - upgrade could of been done at least during one of 2 times the engine should of been out during 60k driven. As a side remark, Porsche Cup car engines require rebuild after 50h and gearbox even at more frequent intervals. If you track or race the car you own you must maintain it to appropriate standards.
10-02-2011, 04:23 PM
#26
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Wow, so much rude and incorrect information in this thread. Let's try to straighten it out a bit.
FYI there seems to be no correlation between track use and IMS failures. In fact some people think that track cars are *less* likely to have IMS failures. (aside from cases of over-rev or other problems that are masquerading as IMS but not actually IMS).
So you may as well ask why anyone would risk ever *driving* a $100,000 car.
Nonsense. Porsche in fact *has* covered the loss on many M96/97 engines after the warranty period expired. And furthermore, they have *not* covered engine failures on cars that have been tracked during the warranty period. They're rather inconsistent, it depends on your relationship with your dealer and whether PCNA thinks they can get away with blaming the owner for the damage (due to track use, over-rev, whatever).
Warranty or not, the real issue here is that a sports car engine should not blow up so easily. All this other nonsense is a diversion of blame.
Let's make that clear. Porsche absolutely implies that these cars are suitable for the track, but use it to deny warranty claims, and sell an engine that explodes if you look at it funny. That's the issue.
Yes it does. I understand there is a long form of the warranty exclusions which the dealer has that is not normally given out to buyers. Sort of odd that that's legal, I assume they would give you a copy if you asked for it.
BTW there was a warning a few years back about a Porsche owner getting warranty service denied because his name had been published in the local PCA magazine for placing in an autocross or something. If you track your car, make sure your PCA doesn't publish your name!!
I wonder what kind of coverage you would get from that warranty if they knew the car had been tracked? I suppose it would depend on the shop that puts the claim in and the inspector; a lot of the time in these cases the warranty company will hire a shop to dismantle the engine to find the cause of failure, and if they decide it was your fault they make you pay for the dismantling.
I'm going to give you my personal opinion and it's certainly your car and you can do what you want with it but I could never underrstand the allure of tracking a $100,000 car for the thrill of it.
So you may as well ask why anyone would risk ever *driving* a $100,000 car.
Keep in mind, while the failure of the OP's engine is tragic and I feel his sorrow... The real issue here is that the Car was out of warranty when the engine failure occurred... No, Company will cover the loss after the warranty period expires.
Warranty or not, the real issue here is that a sports car engine should not blow up so easily. All this other nonsense is a diversion of blame.
Let's make that clear. Porsche absolutely implies that these cars are suitable for the track, but use it to deny warranty claims, and sell an engine that explodes if you look at it funny. That's the issue.
Does the warranty specifically state that a DE voids it? I've never heard that before...
BTW there was a warning a few years back about a Porsche owner getting warranty service denied because his name had been published in the local PCA magazine for placing in an autocross or something. If you track your car, make sure your PCA doesn't publish your name!!
Ps. This problem is exactly why I have an aftermarket warranty, another topic of considerable controversy.
10-02-2011, 04:38 PM
#27
A) What exact circumstances could cause an IMS bearing failure.
B) What exact solution would solve this problem permanently.
The vendors wanted to sell me parts, could not prove the longevity of their kits, Porsche wouldn't advise anything (that has changed) and most dealership didn't have enough experience in this area to advise anything. So, I paid my $3,000 to button up the car, replaced every part Porsche instructed me to and then traded it off on a new car with a full warranty.
There is no solid, proven or publicly available answer to what exactly causes the IMS bearing, flange and/or shaft failures.
10-02-2011, 04:40 PM
#28
My question is this: DON'T FLAWED DESIGNS LEAD TO FACTORY RECALLS? Why did the Feds not force the issue? Is it because we're aggrandizing an issue that doesn't warrant it, as happens so often with Internet-based discussions?
If the concerns are legitimate, shouldn't 997.1 values be dropping like lead balloons?
Also, how can we trust a service tech to admit that there are particulates in the oil filter, especially if it could lead to a warranty engine replacement?
Seriously, there is so much talk about this issue, are honest answers out there?
Have Porsche higher-ups been questioned about this?
If the concerns are legitimate, shouldn't 997.1 values be dropping like lead balloons?
Also, how can we trust a service tech to admit that there are particulates in the oil filter, especially if it could lead to a warranty engine replacement?
Seriously, there is so much talk about this issue, are honest answers out there?
Have Porsche higher-ups been questioned about this?
10-02-2011, 05:00 PM
#29
A good service manager would love a warranty engine replacement because that is a ton of dollars being run through the shop for ONE issue. A good dealer will fight hard for their customer. It's all about billable service sales and revenues.
Have Porsche higher-ups been questioned about this?
10-02-2011, 05:19 PM
#30
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BTW as a reminder, if you have a failure, please report it to the NHTSA - it's the only way to get them officially counted. You can do it online here :
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
Follow these guidelines :
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...fecar-gov.html
http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/ho...r-vehicle.html
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
Follow these guidelines :
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars...fecar-gov.html
http://www.edmunds.com/car-safety/ho...r-vehicle.html