kosmo

also dont forget the one where the guy revs up the white GTS in the parking garage after a stressful day at the office. I dont think the engine was at operating temp!

KNS

In regards to the blown airbox on an '80s 911SC (I owned a 911SC), there is a cheap fix (AKA the Pop-Off valve) that can be installed at home. Should you not have a Pop-Off valve and your airbox blows a new one is around $350.00.

I sold that car with close to 200,000 miles on it and running like a top (and I took it to the track, too).

utkinpol

i spoke a lot with my mechanic about old cars. all in all it is a typical approach nowadays - old cars take some money from your pocket but after each refresh engine is fine and will run fine for long enough time. those new m96/m97 wear off in such way that it is wortless and cost inefficient to ever open them up for _any_ repair.
racing applications are not considered here, we just speak of street cars.

now with 9a1... we just say it is better motor overall than m97 but _currently_ no one mechanic will even consider opening it and as i understand even dealers do not mess with them and ship them to germany for repairs as it is not even considered to be open as old gt1 block motor could. i wonder how all that will work out when 9a1 based cars will get older but, well, all in all i get to solid opinion that any modern porsche car is wrth be be owned ONLY until you have current warranty on it and IF you did nothing to violate this warranty - means you tracked your car, put in aftermarket air filter, used non-recommended vax to polish it, etc. - it just gets beyound pathetic when you listen to people talking of WHAT they were told by dealers when they decline to honor warranty claims.

still, if you look at alternatives - there are none today to what 997.2 car offers for the money it costs, so, it`s an open market, everybody can choose for himself.

Edgy01

Every 911 or Carrera has had issues with their engines from the very start. The latest cars are no exception.

Back in the air cooled days it was first the chain tensioners, magnesium cases and too much heat, followed by air boxes, and then high wearing valve guides. With the water boxers it has been the IMS, and water pumps and now high pressure fuel pumps in the latest engines. Despite fine engineering they manage to have some Achilles Heel in each one.

When you consider the numbers of these high performance engines that Zuffenhausen is cranking out each year the failures are a low percentage.

Those of you who do track your cars just need to stay on top of your engine maintenance.

GentlemanRacer

I bought my 2011 c4s June 10 and was on the track June 15.(I asked the dealer, the salesman, the warranty guy and everyone said go ahead...by the way the dealer was sponsering the event) I had 345km when I arrived for my track day. I must say now that I have 5600km, most of those are track miles and my car just doesn't want to putter around town anymore...she keeps saying more track..more track...

utkinpol

>I actually thought that you could take a 911 off the showroom floor and drive it straight to the track and race it.....

anybody can buy porsche cup car and take it right to the track from a shop and race it.
a lot of people buy gt3 rs cars and race them bone stock.

i bought my c2 car with 38k miles, today it has 54K miles and practically most of those miles are from travel to a track (1 hour to NHMS, 2 hours to Lime Rock), on a track and from AX events including 30min driving to Devens airfield where we do AX. It is quite a beating it took over 3 years and it is fine so far.

there are plenty of 996 cars that still take a lot of beating just fine. but it would be stupid not to pay attention to certain limitations any car has and those limitations are serious, when you look at modding lists like mine it all has certain reasons behind it other than level of personal insanity.

plenty of people lost their engines due to issues with lubrication, oil starvation - it has nothing to do with IMS or rods or valves. some core issues just need to be addressed and when dealer says - this car was not intended to sustain 2Gs of cornering force on a nascar oval - they know what they are talking about.
it does not mean anybody cannot take this car to a track and gently run it in a green run group. more you beat up your car - faster it dies, as simple as that, there is always a limit and it is not anybody`s fault. those are design issues and what design to spend your money on is a personal choice.

bottom line is that cup cars do cost as they do cost for a reason, for a bunch of reasons, actually, and no one expects a street car to be same, but, well, it could have been better.

Huey

I've been watching this board along with the 987 board for several months with the idea of possibly purchasing my first P-car sometime soon. I currently drive a BMW Z4 M coupe. The engine IMS issue described on the M96/M97 engines is not unlike the bearing issues BMW had with the introduction of its S54 engines in the E46 M3 and also in my car. However, BMW's response was much different than Porsche's in that they found the source of the problem (bad supplier for the bearings), publicly acknowledged the issue, and issued a recall and extended the warranty on the engines for these cars to 100k. The also spec'd a much heavier motor oil (Castrol 10w60--essentially a race oil) for all of their M cars as additional assurance that their exposure would be limited.

On the other issue in this thread, it's my understanding that BMW will not deny a claim for warranty simply because it happened at a HPDE event. As long as the engine wasn't over-rev'd and proper maintenance and lubricants are used, they will pretty much honor warranty claims during the warranty period and often provide non-warranty assistance whenever "unusual" breakdowns occur if there is evidence that maintenance was up-to-date.

I still would love to get a 911 at some point and although money is not the issue, the risk-averse side of me says to stay away from the IMS prone cars. I still enjoy my M coupe, I've followed and participated in the Z-post board for years and have yet to hear anyone with one of these cars have an engine "blow-up" on them--despite the fact probably half of the owners track their cars to some extent. This (Rennlist) board clearly has a lot of very knowledgeable P-car owners and I will continue to be educated by their input. But for now, this thread will probably keep me on the sidelines for a little longer.

jakes dad

Can someone translate this down to a few sentences so I can understand it.
I'm sure there are words of wisdom in these paragraphs but I'm not getting it? sorry, my fault..

utkinpol

>hear anyone with one of these cars have an engine "blow-up" on them

you got to be kidding. there are plenty of E36 and E46 based race cars on any track and they do die as any other cars out there. a guy i know who has E36 based car is on his 3rd tranny and second motor.
it`s just parts are cheaper but no one would say they are immortal.

with all this in mind - if you want to buy a porsche car for a track - just buy gt3 car to begin with, and all this will be a non-issue. if you want a car for street/track - buy any porsche made after 2009.

MikeBat

The IMS issue is far from a secret. There is a aftermarket fix (actually more than one), as well as early warning system.

As for the whole "I am worried what others may think because I drive a Porsche", we all have our personal limits but why would you limit the joy that your personal hard work has earned you the right to experience? I understand not coming off like a showoff douchebag, but your level of douchebaggery is deteremined by your actions and attitude, not by the car you drive.

Lastly, all the data I have read suggests that tracked cars are less likely to suffer this failure, in part due to the inherent increased attention to regular maintenance that tracking entails.

alexb76

Couldn't agree more! To me, it's absolutely unacceptable that Porsche wouldn't warranty a FLAWED DESIGND ENGINE, in this case '05 IMS design. To me there's merit for recall when themselves admitted the flawed design and aparently fixed it with new late 06/07/08 IMS designs. THE LEAST they could do is to replace the engine when it fails!

avader906

truth is, it's cost ineffective to mass produce metzger derived design engines - particularly in the light of emissions and huge increase in the sales numbers target. Hence they've been phased out. DFI engines from the newer generation have issues that are currently addressed. any 911 buyer that wants to track the car - and have all the necessary hardware from the factory should go for GT3 lineup (or 997.1tt). In addition to IMS - as mentioned above - oil starvation issue is the one to worry about - but even there fixes are cheap and readily available (manthley kit comes to mind). in terms of block - everything is servicable, however, anything within warranty means engine is shipped back to porsche as is for analysis.

Huey

Let me be clear--I was speaking strictly from my 2 years of participation on Z4M coupes using the S54 engines and I wasn't talking about "race cars". My comments were about street cars that also spend occasional time at the track. I'm not naive enough to think that no BMW engines blow up during races. Despite the fact the actual numbers of engine failures may be well in the minority, it's disappointing that Porsche has elected to not acknowledge they have a design, supply chain or any other problem with these engines.

utkinpol

i do not disagree - Porsche could have done more. I blame new corporate strategy they have for all this. They think too much of quaterly reports these days and much less of their customer base. Now with most new sales coming from China etc markets it will probably get even worse as that market will eat anything and produce mor profits than sooo picky north american market.

997, esq

This is an excellent question and seems to undermine PCNA's argument that the cars are not designed for track use. If I am not mistaken, PCNA will CPO cars that have been used at PSDS.

Imo, Porsche designs the cars for the track, advertises them as being machines for road and track, and tacitly encourages track use. The argument that they are not designed for such use, is merely an excuse for not wanting to pay some warranty claims.

That said, there is a legitimate reason for denying warranty coverage. There probably is a higher propensity for various failures during track use, given the higher sustained stresses on the engine. I think it's reasonable for PCNA not to extend warranty coverage to cars that have been tracked -- simply bc it would force them to raise the prices of the cars they sell and for those of us who don't track their cars to subsidize those who do track their cars.

I think the problem is more the mixed messages, false claims about what the car is and is not designed for, etc. It's the classic double talk from PCNA. Just say you don't want to pay some warranty claims and leave it at that. Treat us like adults.