Porsche: Not made for the track
10-03-2011, 12:40 AM
#46
Nordschleife Master
FYI there seems to be no correlation between track use and IMS failures. In fact some people think that track cars are *less* likely to have IMS failures. (aside from cases of over-rev or other problems that are masquerading as IMS but not actually IMS).
So you may as well ask why anyone would risk ever *driving* a $100,000 car.
So you may as well ask why anyone would risk ever *driving* a $100,000 car.
I'm going to give you my personal opinion and it's certainly your car and you can do what you want with it but I could never underrstand the allure of tracking a $100,000 car for the thrill of it.
Maybe if I were loaded and I didn't care if I stressed the engine or caused it to fail or voided the warranty.....maybe then. Surely if I wanted to track the car I'd check on how that affected my warranty.
I'm careful with it and treat it like it's special because it is. I'm not saying I pamper it or go to extremes to get a clear bra over the entire car or even mind the stone chips that come with driving it but I would never take it onto a track!
Tom
Maybe if I were loaded and I didn't care if I stressed the engine or caused it to fail or voided the warranty.....maybe then. Surely if I wanted to track the car I'd check on how that affected my warranty.
I'm careful with it and treat it like it's special because it is. I'm not saying I pamper it or go to extremes to get a clear bra over the entire car or even mind the stone chips that come with driving it but I would never take it onto a track!
Tom
10-03-2011, 12:46 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
The majority of 997 owners aren't this forum. The majority of 997 owners aren't true car enthusiasts either, let's face it. A lot of people buy these car for the 'status' and pretend like they know how to drive.
10-03-2011, 01:05 AM
#48
Race Director
10-03-2011, 04:36 AM
#49
Drifting
58,000 miles...and BOOM. The engine blew on my 2006 Carrera 997S. Intermediate shaft bearing (IMS) failure...a known problem for the 997. No missed shift. No over-rev. No warning. Just BOOM.
Replacement engine: $33,532.56 (less $17,445.33 for the core return) plus $1,875 labor, plus tax ($1,188.49).
The car was out of warranty, and unfortunately, the engine blew during a DE. And here's where it gets interesting. According to Porsche North America, and I'm quoting here: "These cars are not meant to be tracked. The only car we recommend for track use is the GT3."
Be advised. According to Timken Bearing, a leading manufacturer of engine bearing systems, Carrera owners can expect a 10% failure rate in the first 90,000 engine miles. The percentage increases if the engine is exposed to high-temperature environments (track use).
Porsche knows this. The Carrera IMS assembly is NOT lubricated. Only the GT3 block receives oil flow to the intermediate shaft bearing assembly.
A $19,150.72 lesson learned the hard way.
Porsche normally warrants a replacement engine for two years. They say if the car is tracked, the warranty is voided.
Replacement engine: $33,532.56 (less $17,445.33 for the core return) plus $1,875 labor, plus tax ($1,188.49).
The car was out of warranty, and unfortunately, the engine blew during a DE. And here's where it gets interesting. According to Porsche North America, and I'm quoting here: "These cars are not meant to be tracked. The only car we recommend for track use is the GT3."
Be advised. According to Timken Bearing, a leading manufacturer of engine bearing systems, Carrera owners can expect a 10% failure rate in the first 90,000 engine miles. The percentage increases if the engine is exposed to high-temperature environments (track use).
Porsche knows this. The Carrera IMS assembly is NOT lubricated. Only the GT3 block receives oil flow to the intermediate shaft bearing assembly.
A $19,150.72 lesson learned the hard way.
Porsche normally warrants a replacement engine for two years. They say if the car is tracked, the warranty is voided.
You might want to post this thread on the "Racing" forum. I am sure you will get different opinions from those posted on this thread...
Good luck with the fix.
-B
10-03-2011, 08:25 AM
#50
The following link pretty much explains the issue and available corrective measures. Not sure why there continues to be confusion about the root cuase of the problem. The IMS was poorly designed and is poorly lubricated. It's such a poor design that Porsche designed it out of their newest engines.
http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html
http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html
10-03-2011, 09:26 AM
#51
Drifting
OP, sorry to hear about your misfortune.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the 997.2 eliminated the IMS.
As far as track issues, this is getting me thinking. I am due to track the car and took the on-track insurance. However, that would be only for liability and damage and not cover a mechanical failure, if one should arise!
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the 997.2 eliminated the IMS.
As far as track issues, this is getting me thinking. I am due to track the car and took the on-track insurance. However, that would be only for liability and damage and not cover a mechanical failure, if one should arise!
10-03-2011, 10:04 AM
#52
Race Director
Tracked, no. Will they generally hold up ok? Sure. But don't kid yourself, these are not race cars (for the street or otherwise)
Since we're letting it all hang out, I'm throwing in my take on your opinion. It makes no sense to bubble wrap a car that was meant to be driven. You don't really know what driving is until you've taken a car to the track. 'Spirited' driving does not count unless you're into placing yourself and others in serious danger. If you want to 'oogle' something and never use it because it's too 'nice', I would suggest collecting jewelry instead of cars. Jewelry holds value much better. To each his own, in the end. Just don't talk down to people that are willing to use their cars and learn what it's like to really know how to drive.
God there is so much pompous bull**** on both sides, its crazy.
yes, the 9A1 does not have these issues.
10-03-2011, 10:17 AM
#54
Rennlist Member
that is why i wrote in the other thread - one who wants a trackable street car has one only option today - to get a car with new 9a1 motor, or wait for M9x motor to end its life way prematurely. what will it be - IMS, rods, chain, scored cylinder, valves - toss a dice and choose for yourself.
i also posted a thread where i suggested that any owner with M96/M97 motor should petition PCNA to press Germany headquaters to create a campaign to allow (for extra $ ) to replace M9x motor with new 9A1 motor in 997.1 cars as no matter what you do to those older motors they are originally flawed by design. I realize that chances for Porsche to listen are slim but if they will get enough responses - who knows. I just hate the idea that if my engine goes ONLY option i will have with some discount from a factory is to get SAME EXACT motor - $16K if they will accept core, then labor on top of it, about of those $20K total.
If you want to get a different motor you have to pay full retail - about of $40K. I am positive they could build up an ECU for DFI 9A1 motor that will allow installation of those engines into 997.1 cars with no issues, i do not say they should do it for free for all of us but IF anything happens it is just moronic to take one flawed engine out and put in back same exact one waiting for it to go kaboom as well. it is not what I agree to pay $20K for. it is stupid.
if anyone wants to write to PCNA - here is a link. they do respond.
https://my.porsche.com/usa/dialogue/...ion/contactus/
10-03-2011, 10:27 AM
#55
If the prerequisite for Porsche sports cars is they must be tracked, Porsche would have gone out of business a long time ago. I truly believe that not only are most of these cars NOT tracked, the level of driving ability of the typical Porsche owner is close to average-nothing special.
I wonder if Porsche has done a profile study on their sports car buyers. If so, I never received notice.
I wonder if Porsche has done a profile study on their sports car buyers. If so, I never received notice.
10-03-2011, 10:29 AM
#56
Race Director
I agree....especially with all the BS and misunderstanding of PDK and those that cut down PDK and have never really driven or lived with it.
10-03-2011, 11:06 AM
#57
Race Director
not really. I'm pompous because I'm tired of both sides.
one side says, "if you don't track it or drive it hard, why do you own it, its meant for that, blah blah blah"
the other side says "if its not perfectly clean and hermetically sealed at all times but the one time I drive it for 50 miles per month, its junk".
How about people just agree that everyone buys their cars for different reasons and none of them are the "right" or "wrong" reason.
one side says, "if you don't track it or drive it hard, why do you own it, its meant for that, blah blah blah"
the other side says "if its not perfectly clean and hermetically sealed at all times but the one time I drive it for 50 miles per month, its junk".
How about people just agree that everyone buys their cars for different reasons and none of them are the "right" or "wrong" reason.
10-03-2011, 11:28 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
If you have an old PMI report it should have engine number printed in it. it was a post somethere on renntech i think where it was stating since what range of engine numbers porsche started using an updated bigger single row bearing but i cannot find it now, may be somebody here still has a link.
10-03-2011, 11:58 AM
#59
Nordschleife Master
I'm going to try not to escalate any things further, as I acknowledge my original post was not constructive. I do want to make a point, though:
^+1
Don't write off something that you've never even tried before. Doing DE's is one of the most exhilarating and addicting pastimes out there. You owe it to yourself to at least TRY one DE before making a judgement. If you think that you're going to be 'tearing it up' and putting your IMS at risk your first time out, you are in for a BIG piece of humble pie. There's a big misconception that you're going to be smoking tires and going 'sideways' your first time out. It takes A LOT of practice to be as good as some of the guys on this forum. It takes a lot of skill to bring these cars even close to their 'limits' and start breaking parts. At the very least, you'll gain a new appreciation for what it really takes to know how to drive well.
Don't write off something that you've never even tried before. Doing DE's is one of the most exhilarating and addicting pastimes out there. You owe it to yourself to at least TRY one DE before making a judgement. If you think that you're going to be 'tearing it up' and putting your IMS at risk your first time out, you are in for a BIG piece of humble pie. There's a big misconception that you're going to be smoking tires and going 'sideways' your first time out. It takes A LOT of practice to be as good as some of the guys on this forum. It takes a lot of skill to bring these cars even close to their 'limits' and start breaking parts. At the very least, you'll gain a new appreciation for what it really takes to know how to drive well.
10-03-2011, 12:02 PM
#60
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According to the driver side door panel, the car left the factory on "09/05." So it must have been one of the very first 997 models out the door.
I bought it with 22,000 miles and put another 20,000 miles on it before taking it to the track. Those of you who know me know that the car has been driven hard for the past two years. In 2010, I did 22 DE events. This year, I've already done 20.
It's my understanding that the IMS failure can be exacerbated by high operating temperatures. In June, at Road Atlanta, a 2006 997S very similar to mine had an IMS failure. The car was giving "warning signs." High engine temps and rattling sounds before it let go. The owner, from Virginia, had to spring for a new engine. No help from Porsche.
My engine also let go at Road Atlanta...in August...under similarly hot conditions. It gave NO warning signs. I had accelerated through second gear and had just shifted up into third when the dashboard lit up and I lost power. A photographer standing nearby said the car made no noise. It just shut down. I recall hearing a brief high-pitched whirring sound for a second or two.
By the way, for those of you who think "track insurance" is the solution...you should know that insurance doesn't cover mechanical problems. And it doesn't cover liability. It just fixes the car if you crunch it (after a high deductible).
You should also know that Porsche exchanges like engines. So if you send back an M96 engine, you get an M96 engine. As far as I know, my new block has the same IMS configuration...so there's the potential that I could be buying yet another lump somewhere down the line.
I will say the car performed admirably last week at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, and I've got my fingers crossed that it continues to plug along this coming weekend for three days at Daytona International Speedway, where the engine will work at full RPM. We pulled the oil filter after Barber, and it was pristine. Maybe I got a good one this time.
Finally, I want to say that I fully understand the risks involved in tracking a car, and I accept those risks. And I also want to be clear that I LOVE my car, and I plan to keep it for a long, long time. I'm just bothered by the fact that Porsche has a KNOWN problem, yet continues to deny it...while marketing the car as being "built for the track."
I bought it with 22,000 miles and put another 20,000 miles on it before taking it to the track. Those of you who know me know that the car has been driven hard for the past two years. In 2010, I did 22 DE events. This year, I've already done 20.
It's my understanding that the IMS failure can be exacerbated by high operating temperatures. In June, at Road Atlanta, a 2006 997S very similar to mine had an IMS failure. The car was giving "warning signs." High engine temps and rattling sounds before it let go. The owner, from Virginia, had to spring for a new engine. No help from Porsche.
My engine also let go at Road Atlanta...in August...under similarly hot conditions. It gave NO warning signs. I had accelerated through second gear and had just shifted up into third when the dashboard lit up and I lost power. A photographer standing nearby said the car made no noise. It just shut down. I recall hearing a brief high-pitched whirring sound for a second or two.
By the way, for those of you who think "track insurance" is the solution...you should know that insurance doesn't cover mechanical problems. And it doesn't cover liability. It just fixes the car if you crunch it (after a high deductible).
You should also know that Porsche exchanges like engines. So if you send back an M96 engine, you get an M96 engine. As far as I know, my new block has the same IMS configuration...so there's the potential that I could be buying yet another lump somewhere down the line.
I will say the car performed admirably last week at Barber Motorsports Park in Birmingham, and I've got my fingers crossed that it continues to plug along this coming weekend for three days at Daytona International Speedway, where the engine will work at full RPM. We pulled the oil filter after Barber, and it was pristine. Maybe I got a good one this time.
Finally, I want to say that I fully understand the risks involved in tracking a car, and I accept those risks. And I also want to be clear that I LOVE my car, and I plan to keep it for a long, long time. I'm just bothered by the fact that Porsche has a KNOWN problem, yet continues to deny it...while marketing the car as being "built for the track."