db

I'm a prospective 997 C2S buyer who is currently an active autocrosser with the BMW CCA. Though I've had success racing my 135i in stock and mod CCA classes, I feel it's time to move onto a more purpose-built sports car and fulfill my goal of becoming a Porsche owner. I've test-driven the car, but never driven it (or any Porsche) in a competition environment. Reading about mastering the nuances of the 911's chassis can only go so far.

To that end, I'd love to get advice from those who already race their 997s, particularly in autocross environments, on the following:

1) I've heard second hand, anecdotal stories of how autocrossing a 997 is an exercise in futility, with handling characteristics varying from extreme understeer to oversteer. Some say that even when you get it right and the lap times drop, it's still not a particularly enjoyable drive. This is obviously highly subjective. However, there was a stock 997 C4S at Saturday's event, and he couldn't get either end to stick. His lap times weren't competitive with the Bimmers, and I was surprised how much he had to fight the car to hustle through the cones. Note that he's a BMW guy and not an experienced Porsche racer in his newer toy, which I'm sure played a large part, but he's no autocross novice, either. What are your experiences?

2) I'm not looking to have to significantly modify the car to race it. I envision swapping on a set of dedicated wheels/tires, pressing the PASM to Sport and kicking some butt. I'm fine with camber mods as well. I'm competitive and want to run at the top of my class as I do with my 135i, but this will be in a casual PCA and BMW CCA environment. I'm not after SCCA nationals, here! I'd like to do PCA/CCA HPDEs as well. I feel this a viable plan with this car. Agree or disagree? I imagine the brake pads with the big reds are effective for autocross. Are the pads up to the task for HPDEs? Any engine fluid cooling concerns in either venue, or is the car robustly engineered for hard driving?

3) How does your 997 stack up against the Cayman S? I see more Caymans racing locally, but the 997 has the allure I yearn for. I've enjoyed the Caymans I've driven, but for me they don't have the incredible chassis rigidity, perfectly weighted controls and acceleration of the 997 S. I imagine an '09 Cayman S with LSD vs. a 997.1 would be a pretty good fight. Feedback?

I appreciate any and all commentary from the experts out there!

db

GuyIncognito

never autocrossed my 997 but yes, it would have a lot of understeer at low speeds without modification. 997 is a brilliant track day/HPDE car, though.

maybe buy an Elise, S2K, Miata, Solstice, etc instead? mid engine and light weight has a big advantage in autocross and would still be fun on a proper track.

Hella-Buggin'

I've done ax in mine a few times and never in anything else. The boxsters and cayman cars seemed to take the tight turns well but the torque and power if the 997s made up for it in the slaloms and out of turn acceleration. There was understeer but you can learn to kick the back end out. Being a novice, I wasn't the fastest but I wasn't in the bottom either. I figure experience will help. Compared to the veterans in the dialed in 914's and older 911's, they looked far more nimble.

simsgw

I've done hilll climbs, autocross, street racing and finally Formula Ford racing on track, starting in 1965 with an MG. Little cars naturally have more room to maneuver in a tight course. Same amount of asphalt and half the square footage of car to get around. Setting aside that obvious point, a 997 will be fine in autocross. Any futility is sitting behind the wheel.

Correct modern technique needs time to learn however. My last experience on track was in my open wheel Ford in the early nineties, so I needed two HPDE's to get the hang of a modern Porsche. I began by expecting it to behave like the older P-cars that honestly are second nature to anyone who's spent time in a Formula Ford. The 997s do not behave that way. I would rate the 997.2 as a great answer to the problem of designing a very high performance car to sell to people you know will drive it that way, while also knowing that ninety percent will never even take the Porsche Driving School (name?), let alone go racing before they first get in a Carrera.

I spent all day in that first event muttering about "how do I get this pig to rotate?" which is racer's jargon for starting the body moving around the vertical axis. A couple of months worth of spare time thought and half a day of calculated tests at the second session yielded some answers. Here's what they've done: the latest 997.2, and probably the dot one as well, has protection built into the suspension for those who casually overcook the car. So far, nothing new. You drive it briskly and come home happy. Drive it too hard and it does something benign, like understeer. I have read that earlier attempts at taming the Porsche stopped there, with a bad case of what we call "John Deere". They plow. Safe, but not fast. Never done it, but I suppose the autocross answer to those earlier watercooled cars was to drive them briskly but well within their limits. Either that, or mod them.

Not so the 997.2 and I suppose the 997.1 as well. These cars have Porsche Stability Management, which provides computer monitoring of damn near everything and intervention at each wheel separately as needed. The first two stages are the same: first brisk, and then like a frightened Deere they plow to safety. But the PSM gave them flexibility that allows a third stage. Take them to race levels of demand, ask correctly, and they respond like a formula car.

I'm not sure it's wise to discuss details of that third stage on an open forum. I'll be happy to discuss what I learned with anyone who sends a private message and convinces me he's been to see the bear already. I just don't like to picture people trying the final stage techniques on public roads. To be honest, a Carrera of any version is faster than a sane driver should go on a public road simply when driven at the 'brisk' stage. At that level, my C2S was able to match one of the West Coast autocross masters on the Streets of Willow in his own competition-prepared older Porsche. But with all its power, it should have been faster. That's why I spent time thinking about it. It is a great deal faster once you realize how to tap the potential. And it feels wonderful and light and responsive at that truly competitive level.

These are bloody fast cars and the PSM is brilliant. If all you want is to blow off Corvettes and BMWs and other miscellany, then stick to stage one: Porsche Brisk. That will do fine and you'll have John Deere in stage two to pull your chestnuts out of the fire if something unexpected happens. I'll be happy to talk more to those who've already passed that level and want to be fully competitive. In my judgment, the car already is. It went to competition school before they shipped it.

Gary

Mike in CA

I've been autoxing for over 35 years starting with a Lotus Europa Special back in the 70's up through 4 Porsches including a 3.2 Carrera, a 996, Boxster S, and my current 997.2 S with PDK. With the possible exception of the Lotus, which I ran on slicks and was my first sports car, the 997 is probably the autox car I've enjoyed the most.

The 3.2 Carrera and 996 were both lowered and stiffened which made them good autox cars but not as much fun on the street. The Boxster S was a wonderful car in many ways, but I never felt the emotional attachement to it that I've had to my 911's. Anyway, the 997.2 S is great because I just slap on my set of track wheels with Michelin Sport Cups at home and drive to the event. PDK in auto mode is really an edge on the course; it's uncanny in it's ability to be in the right gear. It saves you a fraction of a second every time it shifts, and considering the number of shifts in a run and the fact that many autoX events are won by hundreths of a second, that's a pretty big deal. Can't decide whether it's worth it to make that upshift from 2nd to 3rd on the straight or downshift to first in that tight corner? Not an issue with PDK.

I'd strongly disagree about the extreme understeer or oversteer. The car turns in very well and has good grip with the R compound tires. It also has plenty of power, the throttle can be used to help rotate the car in a turn and the brakes, of course, are amazing. It's far from an excercise in futility. We typically have 50-60 cars at our combined PCA/local sports car club events with lots of Porsches of all types, Corvettes, Bimmers, Miatas etc, as well as a couple of open wheel purpose-built autox cars which usually win. Still my 997.2 S is pretty consistently somewhere in the top 6 or 7 cars. I'm an old guy so it's probably not so much me; I give most of the credit to my car!

Whether you're buying a 997 new or looking for one used here are some desireable things to have in a street/autox car, IMO:

S model for the added power and stiffer chassis
Sport PASM (car is lowered 10mm over normal S, even stiffer springs. larger sway bars, mechanical LSD)
Sport buckets (lighter, hold you in place much better, provision for harness and sub belts)
PDK with Sport Chrono (has Sport Plus mode w/shifts at redline,higher threshold for PSM, etc.)
Set of R compound tires on track wheels
Front camber adjusted to around -1.5 deg(the most you can get without other mods)

With this setup you'll have a car that will be easy to prepare as a competitive autoX car yet with a tire change and push of a button, will still be a joy to drive on the street. Hope this helps.

simsgw

PDK. Damn. Forgot to mention that. Mike is right as always. I have the manual and prefer it for street driving. Shifting is half the fun, but on a track the PDK is a big advantage, particularly at the speeds of an autocross where the ratios of the manual are widely spaced. At the Streets, three corners posed a real problem for the manual. Do I shift and risk an over-rev when I get the power down at apex? Do I give up time making the two-three shift when I should be accelerating? Or should I do the entry in the higher gear and count on torque?

On the relatively short Streets, I ended up with a different answer for each of those three corners, but still I estimated I was losing over a second (net) for not having PDK to handle the shifting while I just managed the dynamics.

Definitely get PDK if autocross is important to you.

Gary

utkinpol

well, you`ll have to think really hard and decide on what it is you want to achieve. if you are serious enough - it is all about to be competitive in your particular class.
what class to choose - it`s a big question.

I would recommend you to search for a good shape not very beaten 996 gt3 car. it is a 'must have' vehicle to be competitive in SCCA now, it will be definitely much faster than cayman. modded 997 C2(s) car with GT3 LCAs will be faster than cayman. stock cayman against stock 997.1 C2 may get faster.

both cayman and spec boxster are a bit easier to drive at aX as they are way closer to 50/50 weight than any 997 car. huge problem with any 997 C2 or C2S is that in stock class they do not have nearly enough camber to hold up well, and as soon as you start modding them you go into classes where they are less competitive.

I do not run with SCCA but as i understood 997 gt3 and 997 gt3 rs are kinda outclassed currently in SCCA but 996 gt3 is pretty perfectly placed, 996 gt3 has way less intrusive electronics and great motor. if you are serious and want a dedicated AX car - i would look at 996 gt3 first and at spec boxster second.

i see at PCA events that 997.2 PDK 'S' car is very strong but imho it is a bit extreme to buy a brand new car as a dedicated sport toy. plus again if you are serious into AX you will want to run with more clubs than just local PCA events, so you will need something that is classed properly.

PS. seriously speaking - define your budget. you want a dedicated sports car. so you need to assess realistically how much do you want to spend and whom you want to compee against. top AX/track cars are not stock - you speak here about 3 way Ohlins, totally custom suspension full cage stripped interior car with competitive motor. bottom line is - if you want a Porsche for sport - you cannot beat GT3 lineup, which is GT3, GT3 RS, cup car. where in that lineup to hook up for - it only depends of your budget. some people buy new 4 liter RS now, and sell 2010 gt3 rs which is hell of a car with 450 horses. 'regular' 997.2 gt3 can be modded to get to almost same power level as 997.2 GT3 RS but it will cost more than to get RS fromthe beginning. there were plenty of 997.1 GT3 RS for sale too as folks were getting 997.2.

what I would avoid doing knowing all i do now - it to buy a 997.1 'S' car and spend $20K-$30K trying to build a GT3 out of it. it is counterproductive and will cost more and lead to frustration. again, we do not speak of compromises here, we speak of building dedicated track/ax porsche car.

utkinpol

i kinda reluctant to idea of PDK in a 'serious' purpose-built dedicated AX car, as you will beat the heck out of it, but, may be it will survive... i will buy it myself as soon as porsche will announce 'sport pdk' in a 991 gt3 car, as of 'standard' pdk - not so sure.

replacement 'japanese' gearbox from guard trans. is about of $3K only. cheap. new clutch kit is under $1k. how much new PDK costs? not sure at all...

simsgw

Oh. Money. I didn't know we were including that question. If we're trying to find a 'cheap' autocross car, that modern knock-off of a Lotus Seven is probably the best choice. Among P-cars, I'd say a prepared 914-6 is probably the quickest.

If we're talking trophies, then definitely go browsing the class results for the last few years in whatever organizing body has caught your attention. We used to mutter about "regulation beats injection every time" when fuel injection was rare in affordable cars. Truth is the guys on the competition committee keep an eye on results already and they try their damndest to take out the question of which car you choose and how you've modded it. They sincerely try to make the result depend on how well you've prepared within the rules of the class you chose and how well you drive on the day. Best way around their work is to decide how much you're willing to spend, then go down to a more economic class, a class cheaper than you planned. Then outspend your competitors.

You can find a weak class in your area (for your chosen org I mean) and clean up. For one season. Then the committee will change something and you have to start over. Maybe selling your prepared platform with a picture of all the trophies you won that year. Use it to finance the next effort. Chasing regs we used to call it with a bit of a sneer, but honestly it's part of racing clear up to the level of Formula One and should be. Otherwise, we'd all have to pony up the budget for an F1 car. And then complain about McLaren and Ferrari 'buying' the win because they came up with ten times what we did. Classes are important.

Personally, for autocross I always ran the family car, which is definitely limiting as I well knew. I won a lot in 'unmodified' classes but going faster is the urge we're dealing with here. I fully understand the pleasure in "going all in" with a car both chosen and prepped for the events you have in mind. I understand, but I think it results in different answers than the OP had in mind. That is, a car you can drive on the street for fun whenever you like, but also expect it to be competitive when you autocross. With Porsches, we're on the right track, but once you leave the unmodified classes, the money rises sharply.

If the competition fire burns brightly, wheel-to-wheel racing is your real bonfire of the wallet. I loved it, but couldn't afford it until we started our own business.

Gary

Mike in CA

Re-reading the OP's post I see that, at least at the top, he was interested in a purpose built autox car so your responses to him were spot on in that regard. A used, modded GT3 of some vintage could be an excellent solution. Later he talked about a street car that he wouldn't have to modify, just press a button and go so that's what made me think he wanted something more moderate.

My days of having a car heavily modified for autox, to the detriment of it's street performance, are past. I probably do 7 or 8 events a year now so I don't want/need a dedicated racer. My PDK S car is a great compromise. (PDK has shown no signs of distress on course whatsoever, BTW) As I posted above, I can slap on my track tires, hit Sport Plus, and the car is competitive, in PCA events at least. Then I can come home, street tires go back on, and I can easily take and enjoy a long road trip in comfort. Best of both worlds, for me at least.

utkinpol

not sure if such car does exist, if we speak of getting withing 2-3sec of best lap time on a given day, even with regualr PCA crowd where you get 2-3 decently fast guys.

but, it all depends of what was anticipated in the end, and you are 100% right about chasing regs. all in all it all ends up with budget and money issues, when you think you want to pursue something more than just a sheer fun.

club racing is also fun but it is different game altogether and most importantly, totally different money. and time. and 'many more'.

i just hope when my kid will get a bit older we will do karting together - it is closest thing to racing i can probably afford, and a lot of fun too.

Mike in CA

Hmmmm.......I guess it's possible our PCA crowd is slower than the norm. Getting within 2-3 seconds of TTOD hasn't been a big problem.

utkinpol

yep, he has to decide what is it he wants. i think if he already smelled this smell in his BMW and decided to get more powerful platform to run - it is waste of time to get into any 'S' car - he needs a GT3.
question only is - what budget to choose. 996 gt3 is a $50K or so, '07 997.1 cars how i understand can be found in $70K something area now.
I would probably go with '07 or '08 NB 'standard' GT3 unless miracle would happend and '07 'RS' would be around for same amount of money. who knows. and it also can be 'streetable' to some degree.

What Gary told above is also true - when you are into competitive sport you no longer think of any cars in long term - people just get what they can fit best. Like Shelbys last season - a fugly car but look at results, it was winning. Good driver can drive anything...

utkinpol

it is some NCR results, last year. first 3 cars were on A6 hoosiers.
i was fighting all year to top Oliver`s boxster, with not much luck, ws usualy consistently 1.5 sec or so behind. will see if this season my driving will improve. or not.

Raw Pos: Pos. Class: #: Driver: Car: Model: Raw Time: Diff. From 1st
1 1 9 887A Stephen Lefebvre 997 GT3RS 65.764 0.000 0.000
2 1 10 62A Scott James 97 Boxster 68.705 2.941 2.941
3 2 10 901A Ron Mann 911 68.744 0.039 2.980

4 1 7R 1A Oliver Lucier Boxster 69.465 0.721 3.701
5 1 8 522B Jake Moreau 996 69.766 0.301 4.002
6 2 9 40A Charles Stromeyer 993 turbo 70.406 0.640 4.642
7 2 7R 333A Paul Atkin 997 70.858 0.452 5.094
...
17 1 6S 32A Glenn Champagne 996 75.349 0.538 9.585

some other day
1 10 901A Ron Mann 911 66.010 0.000 0.000
2 1 9 887A Stephen Lefebvre 997gt3 rs 66.028 0.018 0.018
3 1 12 476A Nick Goldberg Lotus Europa 66.712 0.684 0.702
4 2 12 77B Jon Cowen M3 67.047 0.335 1.037

5 2 9 40A Charles Stromeyer 993 turbo 67.126 0.079 1.116
6 2 10 62A Scott James 97 Boxster 67.190 0.064 1.180
7 1 7R 1A Oliver Lucier Boxster 67.689 0.499 1.679
8 1 8 522B Jake Moreau 997 67.863 0.174 1.853
9 3 12 91A Mark Schnorr M3 67.987 0.124 1.977
10 4 12 30A Nick DeRosa m3 68.021 0.034 2.011
11 2 7R 333A Paul Atkin 997 68.879 0.858 2.869
...
19 1 6S 230A Brian Cooner 911 72.084 0.828 6.074
21 1 5S 20A Bill Seymour 07 Cayman 72.755 0.608 6.745

'R' classes run on r-comps. 'S' classes are stock. 9,10 - improved cars.
result above is typical - TTOD on A6 is 66sec, base time in stock class - about of 72 sec.

simsgw

Yeah, that's about what I picture if you have a joint commitment to competition but taking the car to the store tomorrow. That last two or three seconds is unobtainable without serious tuning and that sort of effort is hampered severely if you have to worry about daily drivability.

On the other hand, you can come in the top three with the right car and driver in one of the "almost unmodified" classes. That used to mean mods you could put on for track day and take off Sunday night. Sounds like what people mean when they speak of special sets of wheels with R rubber. We used to do things like remove the spare and the soft top from the car as well. That mattered a lot with the wispy power of those cars, probably not so much today.

Gary