Mike in CA

Cool. For comparison here is a fairly representative sample of our placing from 3 PCA events last year. We typically run 1 timed lap. The Stalker is a purpose built, open wheel car about the size of a Lotus 7 with a Buick V6 running on slicks and is the class of the field. When it shows up, most everyone else is running for 2nd. We have fields of 50-60 cars with a good mix of Porsches of all types as well as other cars, a few on slicks, many on R-comps, as well as a good number on street tires. My 997 S is at least in the hunt; PDK helps. I'm under no illusions: it (and I) might definitely be outclassed in a different field, but we're having fun and some good battles and that's the point, right?

1 LARRY SHARP 964 RSA 1993 AX10 43.830
2 JIM WINSTON Datsun 240Z 1971 FUN 44.185
3 TERRY ZACCONE 911T 1968 A12 44.500
4 MIKE BEAVERS 997 S 2009 AX5 44.755
5 LARRY ADAMS GT3 2010 AX5 45.151
6 ALAN JUNG BMW M Roadster 2006 FUN 45.175
7 BOB PEAKE 993 1997 AX10 45.558
8 GRADY CARTER 986 S 2002 AX11 45.838
9 RAY FIORE 911 1974 AX13 45.863
10 TOSH YUMAE 993 1997 AX9 46.091

1 Craig Lamothe Stalker 2010 GTA-R 49.615
2 Justin Moore WRX STI 2005 FP 50.051
3 Lance Bollen Miata 1990 GTB-R 50.269
4 Mike Beavers 997 S 2009 AX5 50.503
5 Jim Winston Datsun 240Z 1971 GTB-R 51.127
6 An Nguyen Talon AWD 1995 GTB-S 51.359
7 Justin Bowen Datsun 240z 1970 GTB-R 51.686
8 Tom Strobel 911SC 1978 Fun 52.926
9 Grady Carter 986 S 2002 AX11 53.140
10 Larry Burgess Mit. Evo 2006 Fun 53.145


1 Craig Lamothe Stalker 2010 GTA-R 41.332
2 Mike Beavers Porsche 997 S 2009 AX5 42.044
3 Guy Southern Chevy Corvette 1999 GTA-R 43.182
4 Lisa Thomas Porsche 993 1997 AX9-L 43.277
5 Henry Watts Porsche 993 1997 GTB-S 43.425
6 Bill Gemini Stalker 2008 GTB-R 43.784
7 Don Cameron Porsche 911 1983 Fun 43.834
8 Grady Carter Boxster S 2002 AX10 43.967
9 Ace Robey Porsche 996 2003 GTA-R 44.239
10 Drew Powers Subaru WRX 2002 GTB-S 44.328

Mike in CA

I used to do that too Gary, except that my 997 doesn't have a spare now. I still remove the compressor, tools, etc. even with 385HP

simsgw

Wow. I didn't even consider those. I did take out the drinks cooler though.

Seriously, until I got the hang of driving a computer-controlled suspension, the only real factor was the 190 lb behind the steering wheel.

Gary

db

We have a fantastic dialogue going here. Thanks to everyone who has chimed in thus far.

GuyIncognito - I have no doubt that the 997 is a fantastic HPDE car. The magazine lap times document that fact. I plan to get involved in POC DE events as well and enjoy the 997 in its intended environment.

Yes, I thought seriously about both an Exige and MX-5, but their limited scope and more focused performance isn't as appealing as what Porsche can offer. Plus, I'm a German car guy at heart, so it'd be a fling versus a commitment.

Hella-Buggin' - Agreed. I'm looking forward to experiencing the legendary 911 braking and corner exit traction advantage for myself!

simsgw - Your extensive racing background is exactly what I was looking for, confirming that I'm on the right track, naysayers be damned! The "e-nannies" probably are what keeps the novice Porsche drivers from finding the underlying magic the 997 platform offers. Your stage two approach sounds good for me. As I get experience with the car and get competitive with it, we can discuss stage three in more detail!

Mike in CA - We're completely on the same page. It's that lack of emotional attachment to the Cayman that keeps me focused on the 997 as well. I know that if I went the Cayman route, I'd have a blast but would end up selling it within a few years, just as with my 135i. The 997, however, is a car one could keep indefinitely. The mystique and competition heritage of the 911 variants are legendary, and engaging like no other.

I didn't realize that a Sport PASM option with a mechanical LSD was available. That was one of my critiques in thinking about the potential of the C2S vs. GT3 and '09+ Cayman S. Is it the same LSD as in the GT3? I'll put that down on my must have list when screening cars.

You also nailed it with the simple approach to racing that Porsche factory engineering affords, with a tire/wheel swap and PASM button transforming the car and providing the best of both worlds. Sold!

As for PDK, I'm still a purist at heart and enjoy shifting my own gears, rev-matching and knocking off seamless heel-and-toe downshifts. Buying my first Porsche and not experiencing that intimate driver/machine connection would be a shame.

Perhaps down the road...

utkinpol - Appreciate the insight. I have no intention of classing the car for SCCA competition. My focus will be PCA and BMW CCA autocrosses, both of which I want to run at the front of my class, as I currently do. I'll add in POC DEs, and I'll be fully satisfied. I have no desire of wheel-to-wheel racing, either; time trials are perfect.

Budget is certainly key as you point out. I'm looking in the $50K-$60K for a pre-owned 997. That gives me a good selection of 997.1s with low miles, including CPO cars. I couldn't justify spending more for a 997 GT3 at this time as my toy, but plan to upgrade to one after I'm through with the C2S. While the 996 GT3 is an awesome car, for some reason the 996 models are where Porsche lost me as a fan (other than the Turbo, GT2). With the 997 GT3 available (especially the .2 with centerlocks), I just couldn't do it!

Your advice of not trying to over modify the car is well taken. Been there, done that. I specifically kept my 135i's mods to a minimum, with a set of lightweight Apex wheels and 255/265 AD08s, M3 control arms, M3 FSB and Vorshlag camber plates. I plan to follow a similar, simple path with the C2S (wheels/tires, GT3 LCAs) and expect the same sort of transformational results. I know it'd never be a GT3, so I'll go that path in upgrading to one once I've become experienced enough for it. I like to have goals to work for, and a delayed gratification can be a good thing. Stepping up to a C2S is already a huge leap in performance from my 135i and will keep me entertained.

I also agree that the long-term PDK servicing costs will be far higher than a manual box, as with any dual-clutch system. Sometimes simplicity is better.

For the group - back to my question about brakes and engine fluid cooling for DE events, with typical 20-25 min sessions. Are the factory pads good enough? I've never had a stock brake setup that could handle a DE event. Even my 135i's factory six-piston Brembos and fairly aggressive stock pads completed faded after the 4th session at Buttonwillow. Forget about racing racing in warmer months with the heat from the twin-turbo if you don't want limp mode. My guess is that a pad swap is needed for the 997 on track days, but the car is engineered for endurance under extreme use and has appropriate factory cooling capacity. Insights?

db

simsgw

Whenever you're ready. Drop me a private message and we'll talk about life at nine tenths. And staying alive at eleven tenths.

Well, I'm sure we have aftermarket enthusiasts on this subject, as we do on most, but my own impression in those two HPDEs was completely favorable. This is the Mojave desert remember, yet the engine coolant temp needle might as well have been painted on. Never budged from its "I'm warmed up now" position. (185 F) The oil temp runs a little higher as we'd expect, but it also stayed completely solid after the first lap of each session.

Now about pads. We were at the Streets of Willow. That's a track you can Google easily. The 997.2 pulls three-digit speeds along two straights on that track. Well, both have late kinks in them, but for a Carrera you take those flat, so they might as well be straights. Let's review the brake lifestyle on the Streets.

We go up the first straight past start-finish, moving slightly up hill and coming to a nearly 180 degree right-hander that can be taken at 40 to 45 mph. We accelerate out of that to about redline in second and then dive into a similar corner going left and off camber... More later. Cindy needs me.

Gary

The second goes over a hump at the kink I mentioned and is then noticeably downhill

simsgw

Continuation: Quick summary of the track. Past Start-Finish at about 85 pulling hard uphill. We hit the kink flat at about 100. That's turn one. Another 200 yards or so takes us to a right hand hairpin we do at 40 to 45. That's turn two. Now we're accelerating downhill from the apex, but holding second to avoid wasting time shifting. This lasts barely a deep breath in a dot two before you reach redline at about 70, hold it briefly to get well into the outside of turn three and then brake down to about 40 again. Turn three is also 180 but a little broad to be called a hairpin unless you're in a Formula One car, so we drive around its off camber surface looking for the exit to accelerate up to the 4-5-6-7 complex. The rhythm section you might say because you serpentine at 70-90 mph through those four.

(I don't guarantee my turn numbering by the way. This track is used for testing and autocross *** DE days, not formal races so far as I know. I've never seen an actual turn number assignment sheet. The corner workers just go out to prepared positions and try to keep cool.)

The rhythm section tails into what some call the 'bathtub' or the 'fishbowl', a moderately banked right hand sweeper that completes the west side of the track. A dot two comes out of that turn (#8 did I count?) somewhere high in third gear and accelerating fast. You're coming up on the 'waterfall' as you grab fourth. The waterfall is a point like those horizon edges in some resort swimming pools. It's the kink in this second straight, but the kink is vertical as well as horizontal. Approaching this kink, turn 9 I would call it, you are looking at the road going over a ridgeline. None of the lower track is visible -- hence the name 'waterfall' I'm sure -- and you see nothing but horizon in a low car. You have to remember that the pavement kinks left as it goes out of sight over the ridge. Don't brake, don't brake, don't... take the kink, now! Wait until the suspension starts taking weight again and go into full ABS as you drift out to the right, touching the inner edge of track pavement as you follow the kink downhill to a little chicane business that ends this back straight. Local afficionados say that spins off that chicane entry are common. It's a little off camber and you're coming downhill off a fast straight. Not surprising.

We dive round that little complex, either two or three turns depending on how you count and how you drift. We exit onto the pavement shared with the skid pad used for magazine testing. (Uh... I mean magazines testing cars. Magazines themselves just lay there flapping in the wind.) Serious change in pavement grip here, but that final turn after the little chicane section is a very broad 180 right hand. Easy peasy, except that you want a high exit speed because it leads onto the start-finish straight.

Okay. The brakes. The braking section for s-f straight is uphill, which helps slightly. Nevertheless, we're pulling 100 to 110 there so we have to shed about 90 fps between turn one (that first kink) and the apex of turn two hairpin before we start accelerating. We're into full ABS for nearly three seconds on street rubber. The last second stretches to two really, because we split the traction between braking and turn-in. The brakes don't care about direction changes really, so they are at max temp for four seconds.

A brief cooling while we accelerate back to 70 mph, redlining in second. Then we land on the brakes into full ABS again for the off-camber turn three left hander. Maybe three seconds of cooling at the most, before we bring them back up to temp entering turn three.

The entry to the rhythm section requires little more than set-up braking at turn-in. We don't need the brakes again until the entry to that banked turn where we should be pulling around 90 in a dot two and we need to get down to something I never took time to notice -- maybe sixty? -- to avoid going on an aerial excursion into the desert over the back of the fishbowl. Since we combine it with turn-in, the car is into ABS for about two seconds here. Not quite long enough to come back to max temps, but the rotors store significant energy they must dissipate into the airstream while we run that back straight.

Over the horizontal and vertical kink at 'waterfall' and we're back on the brakes with full ABS again for several seconds. I was busy. Say four seconds plus. We're still on them as we start turn-in for the chicane. This braking zone is downhill as well, so it heats the brakes more than any other spot on this track.

Nothing much in the chicane. Just mild braking to balance the car or to avoid collecting someone in front who mistreats those three corners. Into the long right hand set-up for entry to pit straight and we're done.

So we have two heavy braking zones on the Streets and two moderate ones. It is a 'technical' track as we say. At Big Willow right next door it requires very large attachments indeed to max out a car like the Porsche, because cars this powerful reach 150 and up in the turn seven-eight-nine complex but without a bail-out. You cannot make the turn nine into the s-f straight at more than perhaps 120 on street rubber. Probably less. So you're braking from 150 down to 110 realistically while in the final corner. That gets your attention. Especially after the second car you watch go airborne off turn nine from braking too late. I've lost two friends at Big Willow. It's a serious track. Running at the Streets isn't like that. It calls for precise driving, quick changes of direction (and therefore car balance), but you never get really high speeds. About 100 to 110 at those two kinks, as I say.

The tires are working for a living though. A large part of the track should be spent pulling .7 to .9 g in one direction or the other, and the only respite in lateral force comes at the two heavy braking zones. The Michelin Pilot Sports did quite well for street rubber. The fronts went off slightly on that first day when I explored "phase two" at length trying to find out how to "get this pig rotated" as I put it in my frustration before I found the knack. As I say, it took the first session and half of the second to figure out how to exploit PSM to get the car handling as it should, and I was merciless on the tires while experimenting.

I also explored the limits of the braking of course. That goes without saying I suppose. When you first drive a track, you absolutely must find out where the braking points are, and if you're taking the car to its limits for the first time, you're playing with the balance of two kinds of limits at the same time. I worked the brakes hard.

Then I got my technique sorted and the braking load got back to my earlier summary: two really extended braking zones from three-digit speeds to mid-second-gear range lasting about four seconds apiece. Then two full-ABS stints of perhaps two seconds each at the 'moderate' braking zones. Elsewhere, nothing but balance braking, but that does keep the brakes warm when you do that.

My reaction to the suspension was pure frustration at first. Remember that my last cars on a track had been 17 years ago and they all were open-wheel formula cars -- purely analog machines. No adaptive suspension going active; no ABS of course; and particularly no nanny circuits cutting in to keep me out of trouble. I bitched about the PSM suspension all day. But honestly, I never found the brakes to be a source of concern at all.

Let me fast forward to the last half of the second session. I got behind a train. A 914-6 with race rubber was at the back and frustrated as hell by a 930 Turbo and a Lotus Exige in front of him. They both waved him by on the s-f straight and then took off trying to keep up. Very experienced driver in a car that was obviously competition prepped. Never sneer at a 914 without checking all the mods the owner has done. And counted his trophies as well. The Lotus got a wave-by on the next lap, but the Turbo "shut me off" as we say in racing. That is, he abruptly moved back over behind the passing Lotus to keep me behind him. An official asked afterward if I wanted to complain and I had to think about what he meant because I expect that sort of thing on a race track. But this was a DE day, not a race, so they did 'counsel' him, pointing out that he may have picked one of only two or three drivers that day who wouldn't do something stupid when he tried that trick.

At the time, I just kept reminding myself that I wasn't allowed to pass on a DE day. (A wave-by doesn't count as a pass to racing instincts.) So I had to stay behind this bozo until he felt guilty enough to let me by. But it's no fun hanging back there counting dings in some guy's bumper. What I did instead was pull wide on the skidpad turn, and once I even pulled through the pit lane, to give this guy head starts. Then I'd have a personal competition with myself seeing how fast I could close the gap. From the numbers, it isn't surprising that a 997.2 will eat a 930 Turbo on the straights. What was gratifying was how much we gained running street rubber on the twisty bits.

The 930 Turbo has to be at least 500 lb lighter than a dot two. I don't feel like looking it up, but surely a prepared 930 won't gross more than 2600. He was running race rubber as well. Yet the 997.2 went deeper into corners, and carried more speed through the apex. We caught him in mid-corner on turn three lap after lap. After the first time, he tried pushing things and ended up sideways at several places where the dot two was behaving like a formula car. No dirt track stuff, just a well balanced, easily rotating, and bloody fast car. I quit bitching about the suspension.

Where was I? Oh yes. My point is that dicing with someone, even in the subdued style permitted in a DE event, puts more load on the brakes. They don't cool as well because the air over the car is not clean, but also it isn't unusual to get brake-checked because you've gone into the corner at your own pace, the guy in front was busy looking in his mirrors at you and misses his braking point. That means he slows much more than you expected and suddenly you're asking for brakes longer than you planned. All this fiddling around, breaking the rhythm of a lap, is why cars dicing rarely go as fast as they would alone on the track. The only reason they sometimes go faster is because the lead driver was not taking himself or the car to its limits until the "red mist" of a race-like encounter came about. (Or maybe because an old man in back was just lazing along playing with his car until some young snot refused to let him by and he got a little competitive fire back...)

Anyway, through all that, the standard pads felt great. ABS can be deceptive I admit, and using anything less than full ABS engagement is bad course management in these modern cars, but any fade shows up as having to move your braking points further back into the preceding straight. I never saw that all day either day, and we ran some extended sessions in the afternoon when the novices left the track. No fade while experimenting, and not even while fooling around with the kid in the 930.

I don't think you'll need to change pads for DE days. I know some people do, but I don't see the need unless you're changing to R tires as well and you want the last few tenths out of your laptime. (I'll explain if the reasoning isn't obvious.)

As for autocross, I can't say. More braking with less time to cool of course, but the braking is from lower speeds as well, with only one hot lap at a time. You need advice from a current autocross guy on this.

Personally, I'd say the Porsche is already set up for moderate competition stress as it comes from the dealer. That is, I think it's ready to run in an unmodified class without such changes, unless you want to fool with your car just for the joy of it.

Gary

Mike in CA

The LSD in the C2S has a lock value of 22% in traction and 27% in deceleration. I don't know about the GT3; maybe someone else can chime in on that. As for the MT vs. PDK question, I drove for 25 years without owning an automatic of any kind, even in family cars, and all of my previous Porsches and other sports cars have been manuals. With this car I felt I was ready to make the move to the newest high performance technology. That said, if I was buying my first Porsche, I'd buy a MT too, for the experience if nothing else. You're making the right move, IMO.

Mike in CA

I've never had a problem with the excellent stock Porsche brakes and pads for autocrossing. You're simply not on course long enough for heat and fade to be an issue. Any tiny incremental gain that you might realize by switching to a competition pad is not worth the problems with cold performance and squeal on the street, IMO.

utkinpol

I seriously recommend you to test drive 996 and 997 gt3 cars. I see no reason at all to buy something you already know is not good enough so you could get gt3 car later. 996 gt3 got nothing to do with regular 996 street car. it got proper gearbox and proper engine. if you do not like outdated radio - for $3K you can put in modern pioneer unit with bluetooth and navigation. 996 gt3 car is only a bit slower than 997 gt3 car. but it is your money and your decision. if I would have space to keep one more car i would buy 996 gt3, stripped interior off, put in cage and i would just love to track this toy.

As of brakes question - even smaller 'base' model 997 car calipers are more than enough to handle DE events. What upgrades to do to brakes depends of where are you with your DEs. If you are on street rubber like ad08, z1 star specs, RE11, PS2 etc - use stock pads. If you started moving to R888, RA1 toyos or R6 hoosiers - put in PFC01 front, PFC97 rear pads or use pagid yellow RS29 pads as they are easier on rotors a bit. To improve cooling you can put GT3 or GT2 cooling ducts into your street car. you do not need to upgrade calipers.

if you do not get a hint yet - GT3 car is built for sport, it already got in it much more than a street car has. tub is stiffer as welds are different, shocks are different, springs, sways, much bigger brakes, etc. they kinda look the same like street cars but it is an illusion. as of any 996 car looking fugly - forget about exterior, look at what is inside.

I got my car for $38K in '09. it is '06 C2. since then I rebuilt suspension, did some engine/exhaust work, all in all in relevant performance mods it is about of $16K spent or so. It got car`s tub about close to the level where 996 gt3 car performs, it handles very well now and got 2 way adjustable shocks, GT3 sways, GT3 arms, mounts, etc. But I still got M96 engine and ****ty japanese gearbox - that means as soon as you get to a straight you`ll just see gt3`s car *** going away. and car with all those mods does not fit into any class where it can be competitive, well, may be I will put supercharger on it to boost power close to 400whp, then we will see.

Only good thing about working on 997 street car is that its engine is much cheaper than GT3`s so when it blows it will cost about of $11K to get new one - new GT3 engine is at least twice as much, usually 3 times as much. maintenance of gt3 car is also more expensinve. pads are more expensive. but now as you can find used 996 gt3 car for $40K-$50K is it a lot of bang per buck, much more than you get from '07 or '08 CPO 997 C2S imho.

utkinpol

yep, as soon as you set your goal to compete with the best - it is a lot of $$$ to spend on car and a lot of time to learn how to use what you have built.

drop dead weight off means a lot as usual. most difficult decision that anybody who gets into this madness has to make is either one wants a 'compromise' car that still can be used daily - my car is such a 'compromise'.
600/700 springs still fine for street, JRZ RS shocks can be dialed out so they soft enough for street bumps, etc.

or give up street, put in 1200/1400 cup car springs, 3/4 way Ohlins shocks, strip down interior, put on lexan windows, carbon hood, cup car doors, get car`s running weight to 2400-2600lbs and destroy your competition. but you`ll need tow truck, trailer, etc infrastructure for all this fun and space to store all this. but i think most of guys who are hooked with this sport end up with all this stuff anyway. plus if you wreck you purpose built car which got full cage and easily removable fenders it is much less pain than to restore your nice new street 997 car. you just ask guys to help you to put it on trailer and haul it back. with a 'compromise' car which you drive to/out of a track you are, well, screwed.

utkinpol

true, stock pads do not fade at AX. they start to fade on a track if you use r-copms and go from 110+ mph down to 40-50. pretty nasty feeling.

Mike in CA

As with anything, it's having the right tool for the job. Although your car may be a compromise you're still obviously in a different place on what you want to use your car for than I am. For what I want, my S with PDK is perfect for a few autox events a year and is a superb road car. I've already been down the road you're on now so I understand where you're coming from.

Mussl Kar

997.1 C2S is a very fast autocross car with just street alignment and good rubber like A6 Hoosiers. Fresh 888s are good also if you want to drive to the events on them. A6s not a good idea unless you live very close by.

MagnusB

My 997 will do AX debut on Saturday, wish her luck.

utkinpol

when i tried out A6 on my car with stock springs/sways it ended up with outer edges completely ruined to cords. Bill's verdict was that stock cars are too soft and have too much sway motion for A6 tires. may be 'S' car with PASM in sport mode would be stiffer but imho it is very close to what my C2 was anyway. fresh R888 or RA1 are best and safest bet. Or even better idea for stock car probably would be get R-S3 hankooks that would keep car in stock class but give it almost r-comp level of grip.