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simsgw - Fantastic info. I've done two track days at Streets, so I'm very familiar with the track layout. Since I know the turns, your play-by-play was like riding shotgun with you as a I visualized your approach. It gives me a good sense of what racing the C2S would be like there. How were your lap times with your 997?

You also verified my suspicion that the stock brake setup and engine cooling are robustly engineered for high performance driving, which is fantastic. It took me awhile to figure out that 911s cost what they do because of the engineering that goes into them. Instead, I've played with sporty cars along the way, spending way too much money in an attempt to turn them into something that still didn't measure up to what Porsche offers with a factory warranty.

Mike in CA - I appreciate your support, and validation of the S brakes in an autocross environment. I'm relieved to hear that swapping pads in and out isn't required. The Porsche brake pedal feel is the best I've come across. If an automotive company can get that aspect so spot on, you just know the rest of the braking system will be well thought-out for maximum performance. I'm itching to get out there and turn some laps! The search begins.

utkinpol - Yes, I plan to use sticky street rubber, so I'm glad to hear that the stock brakes will be up to the task.

The GT3 is certainly the car to have, as well as my dream Porsche, but it's out of my budget for now. I'll be at a point in my career where it will make sense to upgrade after playing with the C2S for a bit. I like the idea of working up to earn the right to drive one after mastering the C2S. I'll know when I'm ready.

When the engine blows? Say what? I certainly hope that's not a forgone conclusion! I've read about the overstated internet failure rates, but the third party data regarding 997 reliability seems positive. The rebuild costs in the event of a catastrophic failure are something to think about, and your illustration points to the C2S being more practical than a GT3, not to mention the maintenance costs disparity. That's the thing most folks forget about in buying a pre-owned semi-exotic: even though it's half-off the sticker price, the maintenance costs don't depreciate.

Yeah, having a full-blown trailered track car would be the ultimate end-game. If I had the cash, I'd go for something like a Radical over a gutted GT3, though.

Mussl Kar - Appreciate the additional validation of the factory brakes. I do plan to run street tires so that I can drive to and from events on them. I like prepping my car in my garage in advance versus at the track. If the tire sizes are available, I'm with utkinpol with using the RS3 Hankooks as a great street tire choice that acts like an r-comp.

MagnusB - Good luck, indeed. Please let us know how it goes and your thoughts on experiencing your 997's limits.

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simsgw

I don't know a useful number. That first track day I was experimenting in every session until they called for a timed session and lined us up. Aside from demonstrating that a 997.2S will lay rubber for a couple of hundred feet, the run tells us nothing about lap times because the PCA region set it up to be run between arbitrary points. That is, we lined up on the skid pad and did a standing start about 300 yards before the real Start-Finish tower. Then we broke the timing lights halfway through the chicane. I don't know if they did this to keep the hotshoes from trying to match published best times on the Streets or simply because those were convenient positions to use, but it does mean the times reported were not true lap times.

Something like 88.4 I think it was, but don't hold me to that. Looking at the TTOD list afterward, the car was in the top six or so. I wasn't honestly there to compete that day, just to learn how the car handled at the limits, but I couldn't resist the chance to make a serious run putting together all the corners. (I wasn't really interested in racing that damn 930 Turbo either, but old instincts die hard.)

Now on the second HPDE day a few months later, it was different. I had figured out the techniques I needed to use with PSM and was ready to post a serious time. Half an hour into the timed session, and before my run, it started to sleet and they called off the autocross portion of the day. Sigh. I'd have run in sleet, just to see how the car handled that sort of condition.

Gary, who didn't lay that rubber intentionally in a daily driver,
it just worked out that way when he asked for all the car could
provide, and after the fact someone said that's how Car and Driver
does it, but that isn't an endorsement since they don't own the ones
they treat that way and he plans to enjoy a long life...

Mussl Kar

I did quite a few events with the A6s on the 997 C2S. I took the wheels straight from the RS and just put them on. No issues at all with the tires. I suspect you may have been running too little tire pressure and were rolling the outside excessively. A6s have different "feels" during their limited lifetime, and I tend to run high pressures when new and lower pressure when they are past 7 HCs. Stock 997C2S is camber challenged so I ran higher pressures to get a more even contact patch.

3 for 3 so far this year with the GT3RS, including one FTD with the BMW club. Running the A6s that I burned out last year and left on the car in my unheated garage all winter. Cyro treatment?

db

More good info, thanks. Bringing a GT3RS to a BMW event? The poor guys never stood a chance! I'd be concerned if you didn't take FTD.

What track wheels are you guys running? Brand, specs? I'd like to run 18" for less weight and cost. Th prolific BBS fitments are too expensive and not particularly lightweight. Something like the Enkei NT-03 would be perfect - light and inexpensive. Thoughts? Alternatives?

Also, what tire sizing do the fast guys run on the 997? Stock 235/295 split? Can you get more rubber up front to get more front end bite/less understeer? Wider rears for better corner exit traction? Fender rolling mods needed?

I'd like to have everything mapped out with track wheels/tires purchased before I get the car so that I can get out there and race immediately.

I appreciate the feedback.

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db

Makes sense. We'll have to meet up at a PCA/POC event and compare notes once I've found my car. Perhaps the soon-to-be-patented, if not already patented, simsgw "stage three" driving method is best experienced in person.

Mussl Kar

My RS is currently running 255/35 18s in front and 315/30 18s in back. All A6s. Had to do some voo doo to get the fronts tucked under the fender. OZ Allagertias (sp) all around $1700 for all 4 and very light.
Wifey runs my 997C2S with 235/35 19s and 315/30 19s with my OEM GT3RS wheels, when running A6s. Otherwise she runs 888s on lobster forks, 235/35 19 and 295/30 19. She drives 87 miles each way on the 888s, got 30 events on them last year and still have some life left on them.

Don't discount the BMW club. Our Boston chapter (I am a member :-) has some stinking quick national level autocrossers. I was not quite a full second ahead of 100 drivers.
A rear engine car will understeer like crazy if you drive it like a front/mid engine car. Difficult to learn and very rewarding once you do. ALWAYS turn all of those silly electronic nannies of so you will notice your mistakes and learn how to avoid them.

sjfehr

Have you considered a 987S? If this is a dedicated autocross car, IMHO, Boxster makes more sense than 911- horsepower is just not as important as handling. The PDK was first offered in 2009, so 2009-11 is bumped up a class to SS, but 2005-2008 Boxster S are classed in SCCA AS (stock), which would give a good pax locally.

Mike in CA

Don't know about the fast guys part but I'm running 235/295/18 Michelin Sport Cups with factory Carrera IV wheels. These are actually smaller at the rear than my 235/305/19 street tires with Carrera Sports and are a significantly lighter combination (the Carrera sports are wide and heavy) which is an advantage. Honestly, though, I feel the car is slightly undertired and I could use more grip. When the Sport Cups wear out I would like to go with at least a 245/305 combination in either 18 or 19, depending on which size gives me the best choice of tires and wheels. I'm not interested in modifying the fender lips, so that will be the limiting factor.

utkinpol

my suspension is built from NB gt3 car, -3 deg front -2.5 deg rear camber, 18" rims 9" wide front 12" rear, currently 265/335 rubber. feels a bit heavy but grip is fine.

front best fit would be 255, rear 315. it depends of what tires you can get. R888 have those sizes, but some say 255/305 in R888 works better.
in V710 it would be 245/315 if I`am not mistaken, for A6 Scruffy(mussl car) already answered but his RS can use wider rims if he would want to, etc.

db

Nice setup - that's exactly what I'm after. I'm open to fender mods to fit more rubber. My buddy is one of the most talented fender modifying gurus in SoCal, so that's not a problem. He rolled, massaged and pulled my 135i's front fenders to stuff 255 AD08s (which run wide) on 8.5" front wheels - on a car that came with 215s! Sure it takes -2.5 deg camber to pull it off, but the results are highly transformational.

Here's an action shot from Streets of Willow in Jan you guys might enjoy with the 255/265 rubber:


I race with the San Diego BMW CCA, and we're also fortunate to have national level instructors at our disposal along with top level competition, so I know what you mean about driver over car. Take Brian Goodwin of Goodwin Racing in his 280hp Cosworth Supercharged NC MX-5 on 285 Hoosiers all around, and even GT3s get slain around the cones.

BTW, if any of you local guys need fender modifying, let me know and I'll make sure you get taken care of. My buddy handles everything from CCA racers, magazine show cars to drifters, making the seemingly impossible fit. Since it's a hobby for him through referrals, the cost is a fraction of what a body shop will charge.

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That's my impression from watching the stock 997 variants that come through our CCA events. Getting more front tire should pay off in a rip-and-tear, second gear autocross environment. Then again, maintaining that factory F/R tire split seems to be critical with 911s, so increasing the rear tire width along with the front as you suggest does seem appropriate. It's amazing to see such a staggered tire difference compared to FWD, front-engine RWD or AWD cars. At a 305 rear width, it'd match my buddy's 997 C4S, which looks stuffed with the wide body. On the narrow body, it'd really get that bulldog stance I love.

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Now we're talking! That's some serious meat you're running. Your avatar pic show how stuffed your fenders are.

Now we're getting to the good stuff. Are we talking a fender lip roll, or actual fender heating and pulling to fit 255s? Is -3 deg needed, or can less be used? How much neg camber can be obtained with the GT3 control arms?

In the rear, what's involved to get 315s to work? The 9" and 12" wheel sizing may be tougher to find, and/or very expensive (e.g. CCW), but that's a heck of a setup you have.

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simsgw

Yes, quite possibly. My best friend is only a Corvette driver, so he can't be relied on completely, but on being told, he summed it up as "You're insane." Well, of course. I was tracking a super car at my age. "But how about that technique?"

I think what lost him was the simple observation that I pick a braking point I'd use in a Formula Ford and then wait half a second further in this car. We do have to consider that a Formula Ford by now is an analog car in a digital age, even if we ignore the improvements in tire compounds since I was racing. He just laughed and told the waitress to bring me a Geritol. And a Xanax. We're old friends.

Drop me a note when you come out to the Streets next time. We can talk even if you're not in a Porsche yet. Beemer owners are people, after all.

Gary

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Yeow, that does sound like l-a-t-e braking. I like it. I tend to be a late-braker myself, a technique forged through trying to make up gaps against more powerful machinery. I've had to learn to undo this in an autocross setting. Left to my own devices, I can out brake myself amongst the best of them! However, with the 911's rear weight distribution advantage and big reds, it'd be on.

You got it. I won't be back out until after I have my C2S in order to preserve my car's condition for sale. I'll want to learn the car through autocross first, but I'll be back out on track with POC. I'd love to glean some of your vast experience first hand.

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utkinpol

wheels i run are ccw c14 in NB 997 gt3 offsets:
18x9 +50mm (7" backspace), 18x12 +69mm (9.25" backspace).
you can find used a set for $2K. there are also other manufacturers who can make custom offset wheels.

you do not need to modify fenders if you put on GT3 upper mounts and LCAs as all narrob body (NB) 997 cars are same diensions wise. RS car has widers hips from C4S body.

from gt3 arms i think you could get up to -4.5 or so max, but camber above 3 deg imho is only relevant if you have very stiff setup and run on a track on racing slicks. all in all - there a lot of options on how to mod those cars.

like i said earlier - if you go with gt3 car from the beginning you will save a lot of headache and will be in proper competitive class from the beginning. moderately rebuilt C2S car will be outclassed by more extensive rebuilds.