Originally Posted by simsgw

I was at Wright-Patterson when we fielded the F-16, which was the first production fighter to use fly-by-wire if memory serves. I was not in that SPO, but... (uh SPO-Special Project Office which is how the Air Force organizes development of line items like new fighters, bombers or spacecraft.) Anyway, I was an outsider briefing the commander of that SPO on our plans for computer networking the command, and in a spare moment, he told me about the flap they were going through that month. A new version of the sixteen had been deployed a few months previously and earlier that week the software crashed on one. Since the aircraft is not stable without computer assistance the pilot lost control as well and from a few hundred feet on a low-altitude penetration run, he had no time to recover.

You're right. Validating the interaction of computer control systems with manual ones is a very difficult process. On missiles and spacecraft, we use specialists that are at once the most qualified in their field and also the most ****. They explore every conceivable combination of events to look for error. And still we lost a pilot that day. Somehow I doubt Toyota and the other car manufacturers are that thorough, so I can only hope they keep to the principle of human override always taking precedence.

As for that silliness about runaway cars, a stuck accelerator is one of the more trivial things to deal with. When I was teenager, high schools offered drivers training classes that let you get your license six months earlier than other kids. Handling a stuck accelerator was one of the half dozen "unusual situations" we practiced. The cars had dual controls, so the instructor just jammed down on his throttle and expected you to handle it in the drivers seat. We also had to drive the right side into deep sand on shoulders, spin the car on a wet parking lot, and all the other usual 'unusual' situations before begin passed. Incidentally, we had no rev-limiters so putting the car in neutral was a recipe for trashing the engine and since it happened pretty often in those days, we were taught the correct way. In one syllable words: "To stop, put on brake." Have they somehow failed to mention that these days? (Yes. It works even with a modern powerful car like ours. At normal road speeds at least. The torque a disk brake exerts is better than any engine a puzzled twit is going to have in their car. For those of us with seriously powerful cars, getting a 911 down from 150 mph on the front straight at Willow before it goes off turn one might take a little extra skill if the throttle stuck, but you're supposed to have those extra skills before you drive cars that way. Just saying.)

I have heard that not many states sanction that basic training for teenagers anymore. Pity.

Gary

Originally Posted by ericthepilot

Run the checklist, call the emergency and land before you run out of fuel !
TADA

Originally Posted by PTpeecar

I may be generalizing , but Toyota drivers view their cars as appliances.
They buy them based on Consumer Report testing, and have as much attachment to , and working knowledge of as they have to their washing machines or air conditioners.

Originally Posted by ericthepilot

Excellent, send more instructional videos, you have enough road subjects to choose from

Originally Posted by wwest

That all presumes that the Prius' HSD system control firmware was not locked in a "deadly embrace" or had inadvertently executed a "race" sequence. Clearly the firmware was NOT paying attention to teh brake light switch otherwise it would ahve gone into regenerative braking mode when the brake lights illuminated.

Originally Posted by wwest

On a 911 the primary braking resource, the front wheel brakes, are NEVER driven by a runaway engine operating at WOT. Absent ABS activation the front wheels can easily be brought to a FULL STOP with the rear wheels spinning "furiously".

That's why the traditionally WEAK e-brake, rear implemented e-brake, was such a great influence in bringing the Prius to a stop on Monday.

Originally Posted by simsgw

Now you're supposing that the parking brake was able to overpower the torque of the engine, but you're convinced the service brakes could not. Does it never enter your mind that physics professors and engineers are telling you the truth and the guy in that car is lying?

One more time. The service brakes are more powerful than the engine. Period. Always. The only exceptions arise when you damage the brakes first to fraudulently support the fantasy some people hold of machines waiting to pounce on civilization and take over the world.

Damn. This is like arguing with someone about gravity existing.

Brakes stop cars. They are better at it than engines are at accelerating them.

Gary

Originally Posted by wwest

But then use the FULL equation, add in the inertia of the ~3000lbs going >70MPH and the equation no longer balances in favor of braking, certainly not for FWD or F/awd vehicles.

Originally Posted by Da Hapa

As noted earlier... one of the major trade rags did a write up where they used a V6, FWD Camry and some other cars (including a supercharged V8 mustang) and the brakes were more than powerful enough to stop each vehicle at full throttle at highway speeds +.

The physics imply that if brakes stop a much more powerful V6 FWD car... they will also stop a wimpy Prius.

You assume that this clown in San Diego who didn't know how to operate his car nor did he take the time to read the owner's manual on his hybrid car didn't lie or make an error. I tend to believe the physics and not this guy.

Originally Posted by simsgw

I was at Wright-Patterson when we fielded the F-16, which was the first production fighter to use fly-by-wire if memory serves. I was not in that SPO, but... (uh SPO-Special Project Office which is how the Air Force organizes development of line items like new fighters, bombers or spacecraft.) Anyway, I was an outsider briefing the commander of that SPO on our plans for computer networking the command, and in a spare moment, he told me about the flap they were going through that month. A new version of the sixteen had been deployed a few months previously and earlier that week the software crashed on one. Since the aircraft is not stable without computer assistance the pilot lost control as well and from a few hundred feet on a low-altitude penetration run, he had no time to recover.

You're right. Validating the interaction of computer control systems with manual ones is a very difficult process. On missiles and spacecraft, we use specialists that are at once the most qualified in their field and also the most ****. They explore every conceivable combination of events to look for error. And still we lost a pilot that day. Somehow I doubt Toyota and the other car manufacturers are that thorough, so I can only hope they keep to the principle of human override always taking precedence.

As for that silliness about runaway cars, a stuck accelerator is one of the more trivial things to deal with. When I was teenager, high schools offered drivers training classes that let you get your license six months earlier than other kids. Handling a stuck accelerator was one of the half dozen "unusual situations" we practiced. The cars had dual controls, so the instructor just jammed down on his throttle and expected you to handle it in the drivers seat. We also had to drive the right side into deep sand on shoulders, spin the car on a wet parking lot, and all the other usual 'unusual' situations before begin passed. Incidentally, we had no rev-limiters so putting the car in neutral was a recipe for trashing the engine and since it happened pretty often in those days, we were taught the correct way. In one syllable words: "To stop, put on brake." Have they somehow failed to mention that these days? (Yes. It works even with a modern powerful car like ours. At normal road speeds at least. The torque a disk brake exerts is better than any engine a puzzled twit is going to have in their car. For those of us with seriously powerful cars, getting a 911 down from 150 mph on the front straight at Willow before it goes off turn one might take a little extra skill if the throttle stuck, but you're supposed to have those extra skills before you drive cars that way. Just saying.)

I have heard that not many states sanction that basic training for teenagers anymore. Pity.

Gary

Originally Posted by wwest

"....a wimpy Prius...."

"Wimpy".....NOT....!

Have you checked out just how much TORQUE those 2 synchronous AC Motor/generators can produce...??

And have you not considered brake fade due to overheating..?? Those are not "specialty" brake pads on a Prius like we fully expect to find on our Porsches.

But all that, really, is beside the point. Other than a firmware fault there is no way the HSD system should have kept the ICE + MGs "DRIVING" with the brakes applied, brake light "on".

Originally Posted by Da Hapa

They are wimpy. Yes... the hybrid system produces instant and strong torque... for a puny little 4 banger. But not enough to overcome brakes.

Brake fade doesn't happen instantly... even on the crap brakes on a Prius. As the article I referred to above pointed out only the supercharged V8 mustang was strong enough to cook it's brakes... and that was only after several attempts at more than hwy speeds (I believe one stop was from 100 mph).

Originally Posted by wwest

Were you by any chance with GD at the time..? We're trying find the programmer who specified the WCS (Writeable Control Store) code for the F16 HP1000 ground test computer.