OT: Runaway Prius news today...
03-15-2010, 09:17 PM
#151
Rennlist Member
I suppose I shouldn't mention that I had the Sharkwerks bypass installed this weekend... my wife said "you just turned 50, you never spend any money on yourself! you should get it!" So I did. It sounds great BTW. Subtle, but a nice enhancement. Sorry, also OT.
I know there is a very serious element to this thread, especially given the fatalities that started this issue. I don't know what to make of that, but it does seem that this thread has jumped the shark.
I know there is a very serious element to this thread, especially given the fatalities that started this issue. I don't know what to make of that, but it does seem that this thread has jumped the shark.
03-15-2010, 11:30 PM
#152
Rennlist Member
An interesting thing i noticed about a civic hybrid I drove when I was trying to learn how to drive stick several years ago. I'd slip the clutch, stall the engine, mash the gas, then the electric motor would kick on and I'd be off. It was an un-stallable car. lol
03-16-2010, 05:56 PM
#153
Drifting
What an IDIOT, salesman yet...!!
The case on Monday involved the Prius NOT reacting to brake application. In an engine runaway situation is that any one of us that would not first apply the brakes..? The CHP officer stated that he saw the brake lights on and smelled the brakes burning.
The only thing this idiot proved is that the Prius in Monday's incident had a serious firmware flaw.
The case on Monday involved the Prius NOT reacting to brake application. In an engine runaway situation is that any one of us that would not first apply the brakes..? The CHP officer stated that he saw the brake lights on and smelled the brakes burning.
The only thing this idiot proved is that the Prius in Monday's incident had a serious firmware flaw.
You cannot expect us to buy that there "must" be a firmware problem based on what happened, because we do not actually know what happened.
Now the reports have come out that this guy was lightly riding his brakes and had worn the pads down to zero and was machining away his discs at the time. How do we know that this driver doesn't always drive their cars 2-footed with a foot on the brakes at all times? His driving style may have finally intersected with a vehicle design that doesn't tollerate it well.
We just don't know what happened.
What is clear, though , is that drivers on the road, in general, do not understand the mechanics of the vehicles they drive enough to be able to safely control their cars when there is an issue (the cause of the issue is irrelevant) . We need to understand why the engine may have on continuous drive (mechanical binding on the accelerator pedals in some Toyotas or mats pressing the pedals seems quite likely an explanation). But by whatever failure mode, the driver should know how to safely control and bring their car to a stop.
This Prius' owner looked like he was descending Pike's Peak with his foot on the brake the whole way down.. .he overcooked the brakes by not knowing what alternatives he should be using. On the occasions I get a rental, and thus an automatic transmission car (last 2 were Dodge cars) I am reminded of the fact that just to drive I use the brakes a lot more because auto transmissions tend to want to gently push the car... taking the foot off the gas doesn't result in the slow-down that I'd expect coming from traditional 5/6spd manual gearboxes. So I can imagine that someone may well be riding their brakes constantly in their daily driving. I see folks like that every few days... the brake lights are on 80% of the time, even when they are accelerating! Those drivers may well wear down the brakes totally in short order, and if you then don't have any brakes left (because your have no pads left and are machining grooves into the disks) then an automatic transmission car would likely see you slowly accelerating over time. What we need is a magic view of that Prius' brakes before the driver started that last trip that had him out of control. I wonder what we would have seen.
03-16-2010, 06:03 PM
#154
Drifting
So what happens if the hybrid control ECU is "out to lunch" and never sends the results of its calculation back to the skid control ECU...??
No braking at all...??
Lean on the brake pedal as hard as you wish but unless the skid control ECU opens the ABS/TC manifolds to allow the master cylinder pressure to reach the wheels....
No braking at all...??
Lean on the brake pedal as hard as you wish but unless the skid control ECU opens the ABS/TC manifolds to allow the master cylinder pressure to reach the wheels....
I would think that the design of the cars that are drive by wire (most these days) all have mechanisms in place to ensure the braking signal always gets to the braking system at the wheels, be it by extra physical wiring and supervisory circuits or software programming and extensive validation and verification.
I'm not saying it is impossible that a brake pedal depress doesn't cause a brake action at the wheels, but that such an event would be astronomically unlikely... way more unlikely than what is happening now in the media... which is more akin to the Audi 5000S incidents that were shown to be driver error in pressing the wrong pedals.
I'm thinking the chances of the brake signal never getting to the brakes scenario is as likely as the airbags deploying in the car without any sort of impact of the proper type. It could happen buts its very very unlikely.
03-16-2010, 10:28 PM
#155
this guy is the same guy that jumps on a bus just after the accident....
he's been busted.....
trying for some of the extortion money TOYOTA is going to have to pay..
he's been busted.....
trying for some of the extortion money TOYOTA is going to have to pay..
03-16-2010, 11:39 PM
#156
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don't be deterred. hang in there man. we need you Gary.
jimjoe - if possible, let's set up a training class for your spousal communications and subliminal messaging with your wife. we can all learn from that.
we can save time at the end for anti-gravity machines and transparent aluminum design.
jimjoe - if possible, let's set up a training class for your spousal communications and subliminal messaging with your wife. we can all learn from that.
we can save time at the end for anti-gravity machines and transparent aluminum design.
03-19-2010, 11:00 PM
#157
Nordschleife Master
Prius incident shines spotlight on driver, his finances
Prius Boy = New Balloon Boy!
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...obref=obinsite
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...obref=obinsite
By Sharon Silke Carty, USA TODAY
DETROIT — Jim Sikes is finding out the downside of instant celebrity in the Internet age after his highly publicized trip in a runaway Toyota Prius: You have no secrets.
As National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota inspectors continue to take apart his vehicle — which he says took him on a 23-minute, out-of-control race down a freeway — Jalopnik, an auto blog, posted details of his financial situation and set off speculation about his tale.
Sikes filed for bankruptcy in 2008, and the Prius is his sole remaining car.
He tells USA TODAY that, while he hopes to get a replacement car out of this ordeal, he isn't planning to sue Toyota or otherwise profit. "You had to be there. People can second-guess all they want, but you can't live a life until you've lived it."
Bankruptcy court records show that in 2008, Toyota was listed as a $19,000 creditor, the value of the leased Prius, which has to be returned.
His total debt was $700,000, and he has had a Mercedes, a boat and a motor home repossessed. The bank also took back a 2007 Dodge Ram, leaving him and his wife with just the Prius.
While Sikes is current on his lease payments, he has to give the car back in a few months, which would leave him carless.
Toyota has questioned details of Sikes' story, noting the Prius hybrid has a brake override that is supposed to slow the engine when the brake is applied. The car's brake system also helps recharge the battery, and the override system prevents overloading the car's electronics.
As to why he didn't put the car in neutral and coast to a stop, Sikes says he panicked, and was afraid that would "flip the car."
"I've since found out that's not possible, but I had no idea," Sikes says. "Hopefully, I helped save five to 10 lives because people are now finding out" how to put a moving Prius into neutral.
Sikes' bankruptcy court filing showed he also owed $115,000 on 16 credit cards. He filed for a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which meant all of his debt would be eliminated, but also resulted in liquidation of almost everything he owned.
Toyota and NHTSA dispatched engineers this week to examine the car. There is a chance, though, that they'll find nothing to confirm or refute details Sikes provided. The circumstances of many instances of sudden acceleration have been such that they do not register error codes in Toyota's computer systems.
"We are eagerly awaiting the results," says Mike Michels, Toyota's head of public relations.
DETROIT — Jim Sikes is finding out the downside of instant celebrity in the Internet age after his highly publicized trip in a runaway Toyota Prius: You have no secrets.
As National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Toyota inspectors continue to take apart his vehicle — which he says took him on a 23-minute, out-of-control race down a freeway — Jalopnik, an auto blog, posted details of his financial situation and set off speculation about his tale.
Sikes filed for bankruptcy in 2008, and the Prius is his sole remaining car.
He tells USA TODAY that, while he hopes to get a replacement car out of this ordeal, he isn't planning to sue Toyota or otherwise profit. "You had to be there. People can second-guess all they want, but you can't live a life until you've lived it."
Bankruptcy court records show that in 2008, Toyota was listed as a $19,000 creditor, the value of the leased Prius, which has to be returned.
His total debt was $700,000, and he has had a Mercedes, a boat and a motor home repossessed. The bank also took back a 2007 Dodge Ram, leaving him and his wife with just the Prius.
While Sikes is current on his lease payments, he has to give the car back in a few months, which would leave him carless.
Toyota has questioned details of Sikes' story, noting the Prius hybrid has a brake override that is supposed to slow the engine when the brake is applied. The car's brake system also helps recharge the battery, and the override system prevents overloading the car's electronics.
As to why he didn't put the car in neutral and coast to a stop, Sikes says he panicked, and was afraid that would "flip the car."
"I've since found out that's not possible, but I had no idea," Sikes says. "Hopefully, I helped save five to 10 lives because people are now finding out" how to put a moving Prius into neutral.
Sikes' bankruptcy court filing showed he also owed $115,000 on 16 credit cards. He filed for a Chapter 7 bankruptcy, which meant all of his debt would be eliminated, but also resulted in liquidation of almost everything he owned.
Toyota and NHTSA dispatched engineers this week to examine the car. There is a chance, though, that they'll find nothing to confirm or refute details Sikes provided. The circumstances of many instances of sudden acceleration have been such that they do not register error codes in Toyota's computer systems.
"We are eagerly awaiting the results," says Mike Michels, Toyota's head of public relations.
03-20-2010, 06:50 PM
#158
Drifting
Yes, by all means, "tarnish" the messenger....
Toyota has admitted to "improper programming" of the ABS ECU in the case of a braking gap, a LONG braking gap, in the 2010 Prius. So what's so hard about imagining a programming bug, a rare "situational condition" software bug, in the Denso cruise control firmware design that puts it in the "set/accel" mode indefinitely.
My own software team has found software bugs of a serious nature in highly mission critical software that was there for years and years but exhibited failures so rarely and in such unique circumstances that it either wasn't worth chasing or couldn't be relaibility replicated so chasing was useless. Then we come along and change one wee tiny thing, slight instruction timing change, and the "bug" in the software becomes dominant.
Toyota has admitted to "improper programming" of the ABS ECU in the case of a braking gap, a LONG braking gap, in the 2010 Prius. So what's so hard about imagining a programming bug, a rare "situational condition" software bug, in the Denso cruise control firmware design that puts it in the "set/accel" mode indefinitely.
My own software team has found software bugs of a serious nature in highly mission critical software that was there for years and years but exhibited failures so rarely and in such unique circumstances that it either wasn't worth chasing or couldn't be relaibility replicated so chasing was useless. Then we come along and change one wee tiny thing, slight instruction timing change, and the "bug" in the software becomes dominant.
03-20-2010, 07:50 PM
#159
Nordschleife Master
