ben2e

I've always wanted a 911 and poured through a few threads on buying here. My goal is to get a 911 that's as easy to live with as possible for under $40k. No racing, no at-home fixing, part-time commuting and full time being happy owning one. Best I can tell reading previous threads is a 997 after early 2005 may work for me.

The only real complaint I read about the 997 is tires. My commute is 16 miles RT and I'll likely ride the bike often too so it won't rack up the miles. I'd be happy with 18" tires. Hell, I'm sure I'd be happy with taller ones but no need to go out of my way. It does snow up here and can be icy but assume the C4 will be too expensive. Is the 997 a good choice ? Is $40k a reasonable price goal ?

My next questions deal with the best way to buy one. Very few are for sale in the Seattle area. I've found few guides on eBay buying but none specific to Porsche. I know many of you guys have bought several, can you offer any advice for best buying practices ? Can one buy one from say Southern California, have it reliably investigated remotely by a local mechanic and shipped ?

I also saw one reference to avoiding early 05 997's. How does one know it's a late enough 2005 model ? (I assume 2006 will be too expensive). I sure as hell don't want a maintenance nightmare and I know many Porsche's have that potential.

Thanks in advance,

Ben

Palmbeacher

I bought a December '04-build MY05 997 with just under 21K on it almost a year ago, and have had zero problems. At this point the issues related to "teething troubles" of the first year car will have been fixed by the previous owner. The only issue that remains is the IMS, which unfortunately is a big one if your number comes up. These things seem to fail so randomly, without correlation to other variables (like maintenance, mileage or driving history) that only one explanation (offered by a Porsche engine authority in the UK) makes sense to me, which is that some bearings are fitting tighter and running hotter, which makes them fail earlier. So it seems like it's a lottery that these will fail, not a certainty.

I've read conflicting information regarding the timing of the update to the IMS. Some sources say the entire MY06 has the improvements, others (Excellence article) say it was "phased in" during MY06. I haven't seen anything from any kind of credible authority that says it was in any MY05. So by "late build '05" must mean MY06 but built in late '05.

My opinion, based on almost 30 years of owning European cars, is that every little thing that goes wrong costs a surprising amount to fix, especially if you're not a DIY person. I've always carried extended warranties and they've always returned at least their cost, and in most cases more. Sometimes many times more. I will not be without one. My C2 is CPO, and when it expires I will be purchasing as extensive coverage and for as many years as I can. The 997 is a timeless, classic design. I intend to keep mine as long as I possibly can, not going to let worrying about resale value sour all the years of ownership.

Mine when I got it last year was $12K less than an almost identically-spec'd '06 (which I would've kept warrantied as well). On the absolute worst-case scenario, that I ended up without warranty covering a catastrophic engine failure, I've got that $12K toward one of Jake's total-rebuild bulletproof engines. Otherwise I saved that money. And an advantage to the '05 is that when I need a clutch I can always spring another $600 for the LN upgraded IMS bearing. An '06 can't be fitted with one without disassembling the engine.

So unless an amazing deal would fall in your lap, I would say to buy the car with the options and color combo you like, that has been well-treated, regardless of the year. Get it from a dealer with CPO or else purchase an "exclusionary" warranty from a reputable company. Then just relax and enjoy it, otherwise why even bother? From my experience if you want total reliability, stay clear of European cars in general.

Edgy01

Buying a 911 is never a low-cost situation. All of these cars were easily $100,000 automobiles. Be prepared to pay for the repairs at the level commensurate with such a vehicle. You have emphasized money several times in your post. You would be far better off with a late 996 in that the price of initial purchase will be easily $10-15K less than any 997. Since you're new of a 911 then you won't know what you're missing. Otherwise, be prepared to put on tires at least once a year and be prepared for one of those "gotchas" that no one can really see coming, but is what comes from driving these cars.

utkinpol

Ben, I would look not on ebay but on cars.com, autotrader and etc. sites for cars that getting sold by private parties. Deals are possible to find.
I was able to find '06 C2 car for less than $40K last summer with CPO warranty status. It will take time but you can find it. But keep in mind that most likely this car will have higher milage and you do want it be CPO just to be on a safer side of things.

Only practical advice on buying would be to do PPI - pre-purchase inspection at Porsche dealership, and read a lot of forums on this topic - you`ll find all the details there.

Graygoose997

My 3 cents
997's have been pretty much bulletproof, including the 2005's
996's had/have a wide variety of issues including rattles, leaks, coolant, radios and more.
If the original owner tended to all of these you will be fortunate, if not a few out of warrantee issues will set you back more than you can ever know.
The 996 forums were always full of problems, and the 997 forums are filled with mostly happy people.
Both have depreciated quickly, so you have lots of good choices.
As a guy that has had both all I can say is , stay in school and buy a nice 997S.

tpenta

I have a hard time accepting that people should stay away from all 2005 911's. Isn't that too much of a "sky-is-falling" scenario? Does anyone really have any hard facts around how many RMS and how many IMS issues there were?

I would be curious to hear even from this forum how many people own 2005 cars and how many have had RMS or IMS issues. So many threads on here make it sound as if buying a 2005 is like playing Russian roulette.

The 2005 is a wonderful car, both standard and S. In the fall, I almost purchased a standard 2005 with 8k miles on it for $39k. That's just a great deal.

With low miles on the car, you can go get a very good warranty that coves both IMS and RMS for $2,500.

I am not suggesting that you shouldn't do your homework. Doing a PPI is a great and inexpensive approach especially when you don't have access to the car.

Go get yourself a car!

-T

ben2e

>I was able to find '06 C2 car for less than $40K last summer with CPO warranty status.

Under 40K for an 06 with CPO warranty sounds great. Was it nearby or did you need to need to do a long distance coordinated inspection and shipment ?

For a long distance purchase, how does the buyer have any purchase protection ? (either from complete payment theft or from a car not delivered in promised condition). The one below looks attractive (although admittedly over $40k).

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false

ben2e

I found this one with low miles, but for $44k. I've even seen some S models for not too far over $40k but not sure if they're worth it. I don't necessarily need more power.

If you do find one remotely, are able to get it inspected, how does the transaction usually work if it's a private party ? Any measure of buyer protection available besides the inspection and vehicle report ?

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false

ben2e

Sorry for overlapping posts - didn't see the message about moderator approval and figured it didn't go.

ben2e

Guess posts are filtered a bit for links but I was saw a few < 30k miles 2005 997's for at least low 40k$. One was an S (Not sure if that's a big improvement) so it looks like there are reasonable deals out there.

How does one buy one out of town reliably ? If you're able to get a PPI by the local dealer, what other buyer protection is available ? I'm assuming you don't just wire the cash and pray.

utkinpol, it sounds like you got a pretty good deal. Any protocol suggestions ? How many miles were on the one you found ?

For the IMS, RMS issues, is there any way the PPI can protect you from the possibility you'll have a time bomb (I don't know the issues intimately but the posts mention replacement engines and that sounds ... bad) or do you need the CPO warranty for those babies.

tpenta

There are many more experienced people on the board but I'll give you my 2 cents.

Even if you don't have a CPO, you can get an after-market warranty from Warranty Direct that will cover seals/gaskets/engine.

I believe you cannot forecast if the car will have an RMS or an IMS. I've seen people have these issues with a few thousand miles and others at 50k.

Also, something else to consider is that there are many RMS cases but I believe much fewer IMS issues. RMS can be fixed for less thatn $2k, from what I've heard. The IMS, on the other hand, seems to result in an engine replacement, so you are talking $15k to $20k. But I believe those are rare.

-T

jcnesq

I have an 05 997S "launch car" bought on "launch day" (8/28/04), with about 45K miles. It has been a fantastic car with at best a couple very minor warranty issues (I think, I can't even remember any). And I have been active here since before the 997's came out, and I remember very, very few significant problems with 997s.

Having said that, a few comments:

1. The "standard" advice is always buy the latest Porsche you can afford [ignoring perhaps a few rare specific issues].

2. Tires are a maintenance item and you can count on buying rears every 10-18K miles and fronts every 20-30K, depending obviously on driving styles. And you can probably count on a few bad luck tire replacements (punctures, damage) along the way.

3. Non-warranty repairs can be expensive. Not that they are frequent, but stuff can go wrong. The biggest fear would be the very rare (I believe, with 997s) engine replacement. I'd suggest a CPO car or a good aftermarket warranty that would protect at least against the worst problems.

If you are buying the car on a shoestring budget and not allowing anything for maintenance and repairs, you are probably making a mistake. But you could move back a few years and get one helluva a car dirt cheap by getting a 996.

ben2e

I called Barrier Porsche (Bellevue, WA). You can buy a secondary warranty but they don't come cheap. Higher mileage cars (+35K) were $7-9k. Doesn't sound worth it if the worst that happens is the RMS but the IMS sounds scary. Would it be cheaper to just replace the IMS than to buy the insurance ? Too bad there doesn't seem to be any way to prevent or foresee such problems. I don't suppose there's a forum post analyzing your probability of incurring enough warranty service to make it worthwhile.

The lower mileage/newer cars do seem to have affordable warranties. Presumably the 997 has these issues at a lower rate than older models so maybe the odds are in your favor. I suppose Fidelity (who offers the warranties) know the odds of breaking even.

I still want a 997. Seems like at worst, I've got better odds at getting a problem-free(er) car than I would have five years ago.

sandwedge

My 2c.....if you're not going there to check it out in person, don't buy out of town from anyone other than an authorized Porsche dealership. Not a 100% guarantee of not getting screwed but I think the chance is remote or at least more so than buying from a private party or an independent dealership.

Independent PPI's are almost worthless imo. Last and final one I paid for was on a BMW Z4 I bought for my wife in NY to be shipped to FL. Large BMW dealership and a reputable PPI company that charged $200 for the job. The report came back indicating a flawless car. Not one single remark of anything amiss. The car arrives and has tears in the leather seats, bad curb rash on all four rims, soiled carpeting and upholstery and basically looks like it was stolen before loaded on the truck.

After a long and nasty battle I recovered the PPI fee and got a $2,500 check from the dealership. I'm 100% convinced the PPI inspector never looked at the car but probably made out his report based on a phone call with his buddy at the dealership.

utkinpol

Miles on my car were higher - close to 40K but they were highway miles and car was not driven in winter. So,it depends. You win something, you loose something, it is always a compromise. Car was found almost locally, in RI.

As for protocol - we did PPI, as usual, car had CPO warranty and I checked if it was really so (which was used once already to replace water pump). After PPI was done with flying colors we simply followed usual procedure for used car private sale - I got title and keys, he got my check and we also did sign sales agreement at public notary. Nothing unusual.

Now, you can stay next to mechanic during PPI - ask for it and ask him questions - what is it he checks and why. It will give you an idea what to look for later. Also, if you buy from a dealer - negotiate and get CPO status, do not go for regular aftermarket warranty if you can get CPO. CPO may cost $2K-$3K but still I think it is worth it if you are getting older car. Save on something else instead but not on warranty.

As of tires - right after you buy the car get more aggressive alignment done (it depends of your driving habits) - having front toe close to 0.02 and rear to 0.10 your tire wear will reduce a lot. Max negative camber on front is about -1 degree, keep rear max camber within .5 diff at -1.5 degree and car will not chew your rear tires too bad.

As you saw already - deals do exist, economy is still in pain, so, you should be able to find a car you`ll like. Be sure you do get all the options you want, do not jump on the very first car you`ll find.