OCBen

No, you're not catching on at all. Try applying a little comprehension - it goes a long way. I ask again, what theories are you talking about? I have never proposed any theories. And just because in your mind you think I have, that doesn't make it so.

Try again.


I agree. Again, show me facts; otherwise quit conjecturing about what I said or didn't say.


You made a general universal statement: "Only the paranoid survive." It was not germane to the thread. And so I refuted your weak claim and proffered a similar universal statement of my own, "Only the wise and circumspect survive." Neither statement addressed anything specific in this thread. But universal truths apply anywhere and everywhere.


You went from some imaginary "rainbow theory" that you have yet to identify to ---------------> "why bother changing oil." If that's not a blind leap without connecting the dots, I don't know what is.

Whereas, in my case, my argument was completely logical.

The paranoid have distorted perceptions of reality.
Distorted perceptions of reality lead to poor decision making.
Poor decision making in life and death survival situations can, in some cases, lead to premature death.
Therefore the claim that "only the paranoid survive" is soundly refuted.

And I showed the math. No leap necessary.


If you follow the owner's manual and Porsche's recommendation your engine will last as long as you own your car.

How long do you plan to own yours, btw?

If you plan to own it for 30 yrs and your engine goes out after 300,000 miles in 25 yrs, guess what? The engine is a replaceable component. Just pop the old one out and snap in another one that's good for at least 60k miles (assuming same annual mileage) and you're good to go. Power train swaps are common place in older cars that still have a good body and chassis.

If you plan to own it for only 10 yrs max, why should you care once you sell it after, say, 120k miles?

Try not to be so paranoid.

Macster

Well, the two pieces can and do make contact. In engines where the valve is operated by a rocker arm that has a contact pad the lobe presses against almost invariably a tiny but real "dip" will wear into the pad from the lobe making contact.

In other engines, and I believe this is true of the Porsche engines, the cam lobe is either ground at a slight angle or the lifter bucket "bottom" has a slight dome shape to it, so the action of the lob causes the bucket to rotate slightly over time and distribute the wear from the lobe making the occasional metal to metal contact.

In all cases metal to metal contact is assumed at some point which is why engine designers and metallurgists work very carefully to select materials and finishes that can tolerate metal to metal contact with as little wear as possible.

Even when there is no metal to metal contact the oil film separating the two engine components can approach just the thickness of just a few molecules of oil. In some metal to metal interfaces the surface roughess is designed to entrap oil molecules within the dips or depressions of the surface to prevent all oil from being wiped or squeezed away.

Any fine metal particles that are larger than a few oil molecules will work to abrade the metal surfaces on either side of the oil film.

Then there is chemical wear. As acidic compounds build up in the oil every time the engine is shut off the oil will stratify and separate into layers. Some of these layers will be more acidic than others. Wherever this layer of acids touches metal the acid works to corrode this metal. Upon engine start the violence of the oil rushing past or by will tear away metal particles that have have their supporting matrix eaten away by acid. These metal particles will of course act as abrasives until they make their way to the filter.

Those that are too small to be filtered will remain in the oil and be present at every oil film be it thick or thin. Thick is of course of no real concern. But thin if the oil film is thin enough these particles will continue to do their damage.

The only way to remove all abrasives from the oil and acidic compounds is by regular draiing and replacing of the old oil with new oil.

Sincerely,

Macster.

JW911

Okay let's end this debate now. Let's all agree to follow the instructions on the Jiffy Lube sticker that is stuck to our windshields. Every 3,000 miles. They are the experts. Debate over.

Who's with me?

Fahrer

I do not take any of my cars ro Jiffy lube. An arbitrary 3000 mile interval is designed to get you back earlierin order to empty your wallet at a faster rate. As my 911 is not a daily driver, I will change the oil once per year.

A side note...the German auto companies are under pressure to help the environment much more than US auto companies are. I am sure they are extending the oil change interval for this reason also. Anyone ever by a liter of oil in Germany? How does 15 t0 20 Euros ( $22 to $30/quart) per liter sound? ..... another reason to extend intervals.

JohnnyBahamas

So, the situation still is... 1) it's your car and therefore you can change the oil as often as you want, and 2) see number 1). Cool. Just the way I remember the debate ending.

BTW, regarding the whole break-in period, my empirical data is:

A- bought '05 C2S, always warmed engine, broke in by the book, '05 C2S leaked oil after 4000 miles.

B- bought '06 C4S, redlined it right off the dealer's lot, drove it like I was trying to take off, completely ignored break-in period but always warmed engine, '06 C4S never leaked a drop AND barely used half a quart of oil between changes.

C- My experience, your choice.

Clifton

OCBEN,

It is very clear that neither of us are going to change each others mind and given your post count, I suspect you would be happy to go on for days combing through my every word.

If doing the absolute bear minimum in terms of maintenance on your car makes you happy, then so be it. For me, just like in life, the bear minimums is just not enough. In a pre-own market, I personally would avoid a car that has been treated like loaner/rental car with regards to service. That is just how **** I am, and I'm very comfortable with that.

Like my first post stated (to which step 1&2 of your recommendation actually supports), use the information for what it is and be your own judge.

Clifton

If we are talking mineral oil, absolutly. For synths, not so much.

Faber College graduate and Delta Tau Chi brother.

Minok

Well I'm glad that was all settled now. Whew!

Meanwhile, my filter will filter the big bits, and I'll change my oil... well now, at 5km after 12 months of ownership.

LlBr

My bet is a significant amount of the preventable engine wear occurs when following mfgr reccos in using a 0w oil and not warming up the engine before driving off immediately (albeit gently) in the morning.

For engine longevity it's probably be better to "disobey" recommendations and use a 5w oil and let 'er idle a bit longer to warm up before driving off.

Instead of consideration for engine "wellbeing," reccos for thinner oil and no warm up are probably aimed at keeping the emissions down.

Bob Rouleau

I am surprised that we haven't heard from 1999Porsche911 who has some very strong feelings about 0 W 40 which he calls "water"

FWIW, I have a friend who tracks his 996 GT3 extensively. He has over 100,000 miles on his car with no engine issues. He changes his oil three times more often that the factory recommends - this in view of the fact that most of his miles are on the race track. This is a nice endorsement of the durability of the GT3 engine if well cared for.

Edgy01

Please--don't open up that can of worms!

Wouldn't it be nice if the title of this thread was correct--the end to all of this!

Clifton

Bob, what oil do you run in your track toy? And what weight does your 100k buddy use?

Promising to hear the GT1 block has long life in it.

OCBen

Not singling out your every word. Only those words that are making false statements with respect to my own words. Nothing personal. Just defending the truth that's all. Post count has nothing to do with it. I would do the same as a newbie in any forum with only one post to my credit.

Actually, not even the Porsche recommendations would be considered the bare minimum. Their recommendations are typically arrived at through statistical analysis. And their recommended oil change interval is a nominal figure (statistical mean) with an implicit ± tolerance value associated with it (I'm guessing no more than two standard deviations, which they probably don't publish) so that the bare minimum could be taken to be the plus side of that nominal value. Meaning you can go longer between oil changes by that unknown plus amount, as some customers likely do who don't get around to changing their oil until then. And that's okay if this happens. 'Cuz they've already taken this into account.

My recommendations are much more conservative and are based on my empirical evaluations: https://rennlist.com/forums/3231362-post1.html

But Johnny really said it best:

jsmirand

My Sister's uncle's cousin knows of someone who has a stepdad who sat next to someone on a flight that drove his 911 for 150k miles and his maintenance secret was....

Who cares, enough with anecdotal data already. Either there is statistical and data driven evidence that doing a certain action helps or there isn't. Then again, I am guilty, having mentioned my MB's original engine is still running with 180k+ miles with 10k oil change intervals (however, the E320 isn't tracked!)...

Clifton

Thank you for the thoughts and feelings, Ben. Sounds great and all, but what source are you quoting when you so intimately describe Porsche's methods? Cough, cough, conjecture....cough, cough.

Please see post #1.