PDK confusion
#31
^
Not really, while I agree with you that it won't appeal to everyone, and I vacillate.
It is reminiscent of F1 transmission (but better), and these appeal to two types of drivers; the poseur and the very fast driver. Those with physical limitations fit another category.. they have no choice.
Speaking of the latter, the very fast guy can have a lot of fun concentrating solely on cornering momentum (and not being distracted with shifts) and shave hundreds of seconds at each corner. I am sure some of them will chime in here and be "sporting" about it.
The middle ground (which I think I occupy) gets more out of perfect shifts (even if rare), and thus I have eschewed the F1 transmission. However, having chosen 6 Speed over F1, I find the choice between PDK and 6 speed much more difficult, it is that good, and involves greatly reduced compromise.
I dither!
Not really, while I agree with you that it won't appeal to everyone, and I vacillate.
It is reminiscent of F1 transmission (but better), and these appeal to two types of drivers; the poseur and the very fast driver. Those with physical limitations fit another category.. they have no choice.
Speaking of the latter, the very fast guy can have a lot of fun concentrating solely on cornering momentum (and not being distracted with shifts) and shave hundreds of seconds at each corner. I am sure some of them will chime in here and be "sporting" about it.
The middle ground (which I think I occupy) gets more out of perfect shifts (even if rare), and thus I have eschewed the F1 transmission. However, having chosen 6 Speed over F1, I find the choice between PDK and 6 speed much more difficult, it is that good, and involves greatly reduced compromise.
I dither!
#32
I don't.
I'm not interested in shaving .001 seconds off some meaningless track time. That's a weak argument for buying this expensive automatic.
I buy a sports car purely for the pleasure of depressing a heavy duty clutch and doing some serious rowing with the shifter while the engine sings away. I like it even better when there are fewer drivers who can drive my sports car simply because they don't know how to use a clutch.
It's analogous to sailboating. There is fun and pleasure in the sport, in knowing how to manually adjust your sails to make your boat go fast. Having a motorboat robs you of the sailing pleasure. It's kinda like that.
I'm not interested in shaving .001 seconds off some meaningless track time. That's a weak argument for buying this expensive automatic.
I buy a sports car purely for the pleasure of depressing a heavy duty clutch and doing some serious rowing with the shifter while the engine sings away. I like it even better when there are fewer drivers who can drive my sports car simply because they don't know how to use a clutch.
It's analogous to sailboating. There is fun and pleasure in the sport, in knowing how to manually adjust your sails to make your boat go fast. Having a motorboat robs you of the sailing pleasure. It's kinda like that.
#33
I remember those same sorts of arguments back when ABS was a nascent technology and the purists decried the loss of true threshold breaking and the sanitized feel from ABS. It's hard to imagine how the heated debates over ABS a few decades ago have now given way to the current state of affairs where we all have ABS and you'd have a tough time finding anyone who complains that ABS robs them of the pleasure and raw feeling from driving.
I'm torn over the decision between a 6 speed and PDK in my next car and my "next car" dreaming is a world of vacillation and dither. Despite my current quandary, I'm quite confident that in 20 years the manual gearbox will be as rare and novel as rollup windows or unassisted brakes are today. I'm also quite confident that we'll all still be driving and loving our sports cars (and fearing for their imminent demise and decline as we always do).
Edit: and just for me, when I can find a better line or push faster through a familiar corner at my home track I am elated and find it anything but meaningless. It serves as bonding with my car and improves my skill behind the wheel. That's exactly the sort of exhilaration that I buy a car like this for.
I'm torn over the decision between a 6 speed and PDK in my next car and my "next car" dreaming is a world of vacillation and dither. Despite my current quandary, I'm quite confident that in 20 years the manual gearbox will be as rare and novel as rollup windows or unassisted brakes are today. I'm also quite confident that we'll all still be driving and loving our sports cars (and fearing for their imminent demise and decline as we always do).
Edit: and just for me, when I can find a better line or push faster through a familiar corner at my home track I am elated and find it anything but meaningless. It serves as bonding with my car and improves my skill behind the wheel. That's exactly the sort of exhilaration that I buy a car like this for.
#34
I remember those same sorts of arguments back when ABS was a nascent technology and the purists decried the loss of true threshold breaking and the sanitized feel from ABS. It's hard to imagine how the heated debates over ABS a few decades ago have now given way to the current state of affairs where we all have ABS and you'd have a tough time finding anyone who complains that ABS robs them of the pleasure and raw feeling from driving.
It's just a frickin' brake pedal. You push it to stop. How can there ever be any pleasure associated with that?
I will never beat up my luxury sports car by taking it on the track. And I will never buy a car that's been tracked because of the accelerated wear and tear from the use and abuse. I'll pay to drive someone else's car on the track, but I won't beat up mine just for the fun of tracking.
The only way I will ever consider buying an automatic is if my sports car was a daily driver and my daily commute would take me through downtown LA every day. But even then I wouldn't buy one, preferring instead the true sports car feel of using a clutch.
#35
But if you set your wayback machine for the late '80s to early '90s when ABS was just starting to see mainstream success in production street cars there was no shortage of enthusiasts making exactly that argument. Granted, early ABS systems were pretty awful compared to the technology we currently enjoy, but in any case that position was passionately argued by many. Many believed that ABS robs the driver the ability to finesse the brakes, and makes it impossible to truly threshold brake and feel for the fuzzy line between stopping power and sliding. That no "true" sports car could ever have ABS without numbing the driving experience. I'm sure I'm not the only one here on rennlist who has flashbacks of this heated debate from time to time.
So you're saying you'll be able to notice a .001 second difference while driving around the track???
I will never beat up my luxury sports car by taking it on the track. And I will never buy a car that's been tracked because of the accelerated wear and tear from the use and abuse. I'll pay to drive someone else's car on the track, but I won't beat up mine just for the fun of tracking.
But even then I wouldn't buy one, preferring instead the true sports car feel of using a clutch.
#36
As I constantly tell my retired buddy (who has 4 horses), get rid of the horses! He spends his days shoveling horse s**t, owns carriers and trucks to pull them, a tractor to keep his 4 acres up, and feeds them endless tons of food. He used to be into Austin Healey's and I keep telling him that would be a lot more fun, a lot cheaper, and a lot less headaches!
#38
I don't.
I'm not interested in shaving .001 seconds off some meaningless track time. That's a weak argument for buying this expensive automatic.
I buy a sports car purely for the pleasure of depressing a heavy duty clutch and doing some serious rowing with the shifter while the engine sings away. I like it even better when there are fewer drivers who can drive my sports car simply because they don't know how to use a clutch.
It's analogous to sailboating. There is fun and pleasure in the sport, in knowing how to manually adjust your sails to make your boat go fast. Having a motorboat robs you of the sailing pleasure. It's kinda like that.
I'm not interested in shaving .001 seconds off some meaningless track time. That's a weak argument for buying this expensive automatic.
I buy a sports car purely for the pleasure of depressing a heavy duty clutch and doing some serious rowing with the shifter while the engine sings away. I like it even better when there are fewer drivers who can drive my sports car simply because they don't know how to use a clutch.
It's analogous to sailboating. There is fun and pleasure in the sport, in knowing how to manually adjust your sails to make your boat go fast. Having a motorboat robs you of the sailing pleasure. It's kinda like that.
#39
This "PDK drama" is really bizarre!!! first time I used the PDK was like using the turning signal, I didn´t even thought about it. But we can´t hide the fact many people are having problems with PDK system, that´s why Porsche are offering paddles next year, it´s not because the buttons are a bad system.
I always had manual Porsche and the ideia of having an autobox in my toy would scare me, I could never own a Tiptronoc Porsche, believe me. But dealer told me to take a ride and gave me a PDK for a long test drive. I liked it and decided to go for it, because it offers you a new way of driving aproach that I´m willing to try and developed. PDK it´s not better or worse than a manual, it´s different. If, for some reason I miss the manual felling after a while, I´ll buy a manual Cooper S and tune it to + 200hp to have fun with it
J.Seven
I always had manual Porsche and the ideia of having an autobox in my toy would scare me, I could never own a Tiptronoc Porsche, believe me. But dealer told me to take a ride and gave me a PDK for a long test drive. I liked it and decided to go for it, because it offers you a new way of driving aproach that I´m willing to try and developed. PDK it´s not better or worse than a manual, it´s different. If, for some reason I miss the manual felling after a while, I´ll buy a manual Cooper S and tune it to + 200hp to have fun with it
J.Seven
Last edited by JSeven; 05-28-2009 at 12:38 PM.
#40
But if you set your wayback machine for the late '80s to early '90s when ABS was just starting to see mainstream success in production street cars there was no shortage of enthusiasts making exactly that argument. Granted, early ABS systems were pretty awful compared to the technology we currently enjoy, but in any case that position was passionately argued by many. Many believed that ABS robs the driver the ability to finesse the brakes, and makes it impossible to truly threshold brake and feel for the fuzzy line between stopping power and sliding. That no "true" sports car could ever have ABS without numbing the driving experience. I'm sure I'm not the only one here on rennlist who has flashbacks of this heated debate from time to time.
The point is, your comparison is flawed. You're comparing older technology with newer technology for a given mechanical function.
The PDK is an automatic transmission. And if you were to apply your ABS argument logically, you would be comparing slush box automatics with the newer dual clutch automatics, and extolling the virtues of the latter.
If anything, slush box automatics will eventually be replaced by the dual clutch version. Older technology being replaced by newer technology for a given mechanical function -- namely, putting it in D and using only one foot to drive a car.
But so long as there will be internal combustion engines to power a car, there will always be a demand by enthusiasts for a smooth shifting manual gearbox. That won't ever go away.
#41
That was before my time.
The point is, your comparison is flawed. You're comparing older technology with newer technology for a given mechanical function. The PDK is an automatic transmission.
If we apply your argument logically, PDK would stop being an "automatic" if Porsche removed the "D" setting and required the driver to use the fiddly buttons on the steering wheel. Yet somehow I suspect that this hypothetical change wouldn't make the PDK any more appealing to you, so perhaps the focus on "automatic" is the wrong direction to take the discussion.
Bottom line, I reject your statement that no car can have a "true sports car feeling" unless it has a clutch pedal. I think there's a healthy list of cars that qualify as "true sports cars" (whatever the flip that's supposed to mean to everyone) that do not have a clutch pedal and I think that PDK is an important contributor to that list.
#42
Hostile??? Where do you see hostile? Talk about misperceptions.
Heck, you can't even apply my words logically, much less my argument.
Go back and re-read my post, slowly this time if it helps you. I said that if you can put it in D (or any setting that is equivalent to a Drive position) and drive with one foot only, it is an automatic transmission by mechanical definition. It shifts automatically without requiring manual inputs from the driver, does it not?
*sigh* Bottom line, I reject your trying to put words in my mouth.
What does that say for your credibility if you can't even show us where I ever said that? Just because you misread my words doesn't mean I said what you think I said. Talk about misperceptions.
Go back and re-read my post, slowly this time if it helps you. I said that if you can put it in D (or any setting that is equivalent to a Drive position) and drive with one foot only, it is an automatic transmission by mechanical definition. It shifts automatically without requiring manual inputs from the driver, does it not?
What does that say for your credibility if you can't even show us where I ever said that? Just because you misread my words doesn't mean I said what you think I said. Talk about misperceptions.
#43
Ben, I'm just trying to talk about cars and it seems to me that you're more interested in scoring debate points and arguing about word definitions. Your tone is clearly hostile and I don't think there's much chance of a productive discussion from this point. Have a great day and enjoy your car.
#45
Here's a good example:
But anyway, getting back to the discussion. PDK is just a fancy automatic transmission that you can put it in Drive or manually upshift yourself. My Nissan 300ZX had an automatic transmission and I could also manually shift from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th. If I left it in 1st it would stay in first until I manually shifted it. But still, it was an automatic transmission, regardless of this "manual" mode.
So bottom line again, it's an automatic transmission if you can put the transmission in a drive position and let the transmission shift automatically for you without requiring manual inputs from the driver and without requiring the use of a clutch pedal.