PogueMoHone

^
Not really, while I agree with you that it won't appeal to everyone, and I vacillate.

It is reminiscent of F1 transmission (but better), and these appeal to two types of drivers; the poseur and the very fast driver. Those with physical limitations fit another category.. they have no choice.

Speaking of the latter, the very fast guy can have a lot of fun concentrating solely on cornering momentum (and not being distracted with shifts) and shave hundreds of seconds at each corner. I am sure some of them will chime in here and be "sporting" about it.

The middle ground (which I think I occupy) gets more out of perfect shifts (even if rare), and thus I have eschewed the F1 transmission. However, having chosen 6 Speed over F1, I find the choice between PDK and 6 speed much more difficult, it is that good, and involves greatly reduced compromise.

I dither!

OCBen

I don't.

I'm not interested in shaving .001 seconds off some meaningless track time. That's a weak argument for buying this expensive automatic.

I buy a sports car purely for the pleasure of depressing a heavy duty clutch and doing some serious rowing with the shifter while the engine sings away. I like it even better when there are fewer drivers who can drive my sports car simply because they don't know how to use a clutch.

It's analogous to sailboating. There is fun and pleasure in the sport, in knowing how to manually adjust your sails to make your boat go fast. Having a motorboat robs you of the sailing pleasure. It's kinda like that.

Nugget

I remember those same sorts of arguments back when ABS was a nascent technology and the purists decried the loss of true threshold breaking and the sanitized feel from ABS. It's hard to imagine how the heated debates over ABS a few decades ago have now given way to the current state of affairs where we all have ABS and you'd have a tough time finding anyone who complains that ABS robs them of the pleasure and raw feeling from driving.

I'm torn over the decision between a 6 speed and PDK in my next car and my "next car" dreaming is a world of vacillation and dither. Despite my current quandary, I'm quite confident that in 20 years the manual gearbox will be as rare and novel as rollup windows or unassisted brakes are today. I'm also quite confident that we'll all still be driving and loving our sports cars (and fearing for their imminent demise and decline as we always do).

Edit: and just for me, when I can find a better line or push faster through a familiar corner at my home track I am elated and find it anything but meaningless. It serves as bonding with my car and improves my skill behind the wheel. That's exactly the sort of exhilaration that I buy a car like this for.

OCBen

That's an easy BS call right there.

It's just a frickin' brake pedal. You push it to stop. How can there ever be any pleasure associated with that?

So you're saying you'll be able to notice a .001 second difference while driving around the track??? . . . Talk about being drunk on the Kool-Aid.

I will never beat up my luxury sports car by taking it on the track. And I will never buy a car that's been tracked because of the accelerated wear and tear from the use and abuse. I'll pay to drive someone else's car on the track, but I won't beat up mine just for the fun of tracking.

The only way I will ever consider buying an automatic is if my sports car was a daily driver and my daily commute would take me through downtown LA every day. But even then I wouldn't buy one, preferring instead the true sports car feel of using a clutch.

Nugget

See? That's exactly my point. You've stated the near-universal opinion today.

But if you set your wayback machine for the late '80s to early '90s when ABS was just starting to see mainstream success in production street cars there was no shortage of enthusiasts making exactly that argument. Granted, early ABS systems were pretty awful compared to the technology we currently enjoy, but in any case that position was passionately argued by many. Many believed that ABS robs the driver the ability to finesse the brakes, and makes it impossible to truly threshold brake and feel for the fuzzy line between stopping power and sliding. That no "true" sports car could ever have ABS without numbing the driving experience. I'm sure I'm not the only one here on rennlist who has flashbacks of this heated debate from time to time.

No, I simply recognize that the ".001 second difference" phrase you tossed out in the thread is a bit of enthusiastic hyperbole and that we're not actually talking about numbers that low. I've only got a few thousand track miles in my logbook and every lap I complete has literally seconds of potential improvement if I can refine my skill and technique. Far from being "meaningless", when I have a breakthrough day and find a change to my line that works better for me, or find the courage to enter a familiar corner a few mph faster that's tremendously gratifying. While I love nailing a good heel-toe shift as much as anyone, I also recognize that there are countless other skills out on the track which I also want to improve and perhaps PDK would help me focus on those other skills, or bump my speeds up to a higher level that exposes new weaknesses in my driving which I can work on.

That's fine, but many of us don't share your hesitation. In my experience, tracking a street car is brutal on consumables like tires and brake pads but I incur way more wear and tear on my car just driving it up and down the crappy roads here in Houston to the office each day than I do out on the track. Regardless, I can totally understand why someone wouldn't want to track their own car.

And coming full circle -- this is exactly my point. This exact same argument was made against ABS in sports cars and I think in ten years or so it will sound just as archaic. Part of me mourns that reality too, I love rowing a manual gearbox as much as any of us. Heck, I might not even get PDK in my next car, but I can see the writing on the wall. I'm quite sure I'll be buying PDK (or equivalent) three or four cars from today.

jcnesq

As I constantly tell my retired buddy (who has 4 horses), get rid of the horses! He spends his days shoveling horse s**t, owns carriers and trucks to pull them, a tractor to keep his 4 acres up, and feeds them endless tons of food. He used to be into Austin Healey's and I keep telling him that would be a lot more fun, a lot cheaper, and a lot less headaches!

Coochas

I don't think 3 HP is enough to haul a 911.

todd.

Exactly!

JSeven

This "PDK drama" is really bizarre!!! first time I used the PDK was like using the turning signal, I didn´t even thought about it. But we can´t hide the fact many people are having problems with PDK system, that´s why Porsche are offering paddles next year, it´s not because the buttons are a bad system.

I always had manual Porsche and the ideia of having an autobox in my toy would scare me, I could never own a Tiptronoc Porsche, believe me. But dealer told me to take a ride and gave me a PDK for a long test drive. I liked it and decided to go for it, because it offers you a new way of driving aproach that I´m willing to try and developed. PDK it´s not better or worse than a manual, it´s different. If, for some reason I miss the manual felling after a while, I´ll buy a manual Cooper S and tune it to + 200hp to have fun with it

J.Seven

OCBen

No, that wasn't the point you were trying to make, which you seem to be trying to slip out from under and change it. Your point was "that ABS robs them of the pleasure and raw feeling from driving" and that's what I was responding to. I called BS as a challenge for you to find sources that show this to be the sentiment back then, that there was "pleasure" in using a non-ABS brake pedal. Whereas there is indeed tactile pleasure in gripping an ergonomically contoured shift ball and slipping it into gear positions with the precision and smoothness of a rifle bolt-action.

That was before my time.

The point is, your comparison is flawed. You're comparing older technology with newer technology for a given mechanical function.

The PDK is an automatic transmission. And if you were to apply your ABS argument logically, you would be comparing slush box automatics with the newer dual clutch automatics, and extolling the virtues of the latter.

If anything, slush box automatics will eventually be replaced by the dual clutch version. Older technology being replaced by newer technology for a given mechanical function -- namely, putting it in D and using only one foot to drive a car.

But so long as there will be internal combustion engines to power a car, there will always be a demand by enthusiasts for a smooth shifting manual gearbox. That won't ever go away.

Nugget

I have no idea why this subject seems to make you hostile but I assure you that my point has been consistent and unwavering throughout this thread. If you perceive otherwise then apparently I need to do a better job articulating my view.

I assure you the "ABS numbs the driving experience" argument was passionately argued when ABS was an emerging technology. I didn't agree with the position then or now, but many people did. Not so many do today. That argument may not be be a perfect analogy to the current sentiment over manual transmissions, but I think it sure comes close.

I'm not so sure that arguing semantics solidifies your position. You'd be hard pressed to find consensus with your statement that any transmission lacking a clutch pedal is an "automatic." Does BMW's SMG or Ferrari's flappy-paddle "F1" gearbox qualify? I suspect if you told any random person that you bought a car with "an automatic transmission" they would come to a very different conclusion than you imply here. To many, the designation "automatic" is as much about the lack of a mechanical clutch and the presence of a torque converter than it is about the existence or nonexistence of a "D" setting. The word "automatic" in this context is imprecise and overloaded. I think you're drawn to the word because it's pejorative and not because it adds clarity to your position.

If we apply your argument logically, PDK would stop being an "automatic" if Porsche removed the "D" setting and required the driver to use the fiddly buttons on the steering wheel. Yet somehow I suspect that this hypothetical change wouldn't make the PDK any more appealing to you, so perhaps the focus on "automatic" is the wrong direction to take the discussion.

Bottom line, I reject your statement that no car can have a "true sports car feeling" unless it has a clutch pedal. I think there's a healthy list of cars that qualify as "true sports cars" (whatever the flip that's supposed to mean to everyone) that do not have a clutch pedal and I think that PDK is an important contributor to that list.

OCBen

Hostile??? Where do you see hostile? Talk about misperceptions.

Heck, you can't even apply my words logically, much less my argument.

Go back and re-read my post, slowly this time if it helps you. I said that if you can put it in D (or any setting that is equivalent to a Drive position) and drive with one foot only, it is an automatic transmission by mechanical definition. It shifts automatically without requiring manual inputs from the driver, does it not?

*sigh* Bottom line, I reject your trying to put words in my mouth.

What does that say for your credibility if you can't even show us where I ever said that? Just because you misread my words doesn't mean I said what you think I said. Talk about misperceptions.

Nugget

Ben, I'm just trying to talk about cars and it seems to me that you're more interested in scoring debate points and arguing about word definitions. Your tone is clearly hostile and I don't think there's much chance of a productive discussion from this point. Have a great day and enjoy your car.

ADias

When emotions take over and 'matters of principle' are the issue when discussing one's mechanical hobby the thread goes down the drain fast.

OCBen

Well, if you don't care for debating the merits of logical arguments then you shouldn't engage in such debates. You're not exactly new to discussion forums to not realize that when you challenge someone else's statements you have indeed engaged in debate with that person, whether you realize it or not. And that's what were doing, in a very civil manner if I say so myself.
Just because I exposed the weakness of your arguments does not make the exposition a hostile act. Yes, truth is sometimes painful, but exposing the truth is not an act of hostility per se.

Here's a good example:
Here's what I actually said:So if you don't like to engage in debates then I suggest you not use other people's words in your post, especially if you're going to misquote them and then say you reject what they're saying.

But anyway, getting back to the discussion. PDK is just a fancy automatic transmission that you can put it in Drive or manually upshift yourself. My Nissan 300ZX had an automatic transmission and I could also manually shift from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th. If I left it in 1st it would stay in first until I manually shifted it. But still, it was an automatic transmission, regardless of this "manual" mode.

So bottom line again, it's an automatic transmission if you can put the transmission in a drive position and let the transmission shift automatically for you without requiring manual inputs from the driver and without requiring the use of a clutch pedal.