Nope, never said a manual tranny makes any vehicle a sports car by definition. And I never said a sports car with an automatic transmission is not a sports car either.

And the reason for that is that there is likely little demand for a manual box in them.

Mustangs are still sold with manual boxes, right? If there was no demand there for a manual tranny, Ford would cease to make it available, as it couldn't justify carrying that option any longer. But if demand is strong for a manual, it will continue to offer it. At no extra charge even!

Absolutely. No argument from me there. And I never made statements to the contrary either.

Of course I have. It would be silly of me to be talking about this automatic without having taken it for a spin. (And by the way, just so you know, I haven't been criticizing the tranny here at all. )

As I noted before in other threads, it's great as a daily driver for those who have to deal with stop-and-go traffic all the time and are looking for a more efficient tranny than the tip. But my current 911, and all foreseeable future 911s for me, will always be a weekend pleasure car. And for a weekend pleasure car there is nothing that gives me more pleasure than taking her out for a spin and manually shifting the gears.

That doesn't mean my 911 is any more of a sports car than your automatic 911. It just means that I prefer to manually shift gears when I'm driving for pure pleasure. It's as simple as that, really.

 

well Car and Drivel and Rodent Track may have coined the term "manumatic" but as is often the case with our now undereducated Media, they are incorrect. that word is combining form of two partial words;

manu(al) - by hand
matic (actually "matos") - thinking or animated.

as any educated wordsmith can tell you, this is a true nonsense word at best, and perhaps an oxymoron to some. best case, it describes what we call an "manual" transmission!

OTOH;

auto - self
matic - animated

is the proper word.

i'll suggest: "autoclutch" (not as smooth on the tongue as manumatic) or "autogear" to distinguish it from a torque converter.

 

I'm looking forward to the pdk in a GT3. Hopefully porsche will fix the software to allow left foot braking.

 

Allegretto, manumatic was coined to describe a manual transmission (by construction) with an automatic feature as opposed to an automatic (by design). The innards of PDK and say, a tiptronic are very different. This isn't about wordsmithing it's about technology.

 

Perspectives alway differ. OCBen finds the action of shifting one the important pleasures of sports car driving.

For me, the primary pleasure of sports car driving is rotating and balancing a car on the limits of adhesion as I transition from brakes to throttle. A sequential (or dog box) makes this more predictable. The other huge plus is it lets me use my left foot on the brake and my right foot on the throttle. Before purchasing a stradale and a sequential box race car, I thought I'd miss a clutch pedal and shift lever. I don't miss them a bit.

 

I didn't say that. I don't know if anyone can ascribe importance to driving pleasures. But yeah, I enjoy shifting gears manually when going for a pleasure drive in my 911.

On the street???

Driving like that will get you a suspended license for reckless driving and possibly have your car impounded, around these parts.

If you're gonna make comparisons you need to stick to either oranges or apples.

 

Um, Bob. is anything i have said indicative that i do not comprehend the distinction between a torque converter and a manual transmission? my brook is not with you or anyone else here.

and, i was speaking about the technology, and English and its roots. this is NOT subject to interpretation, it is what it is, regardless of current slang or columnists with on-line degrees or Marketing departments. "manumatic" means something different than PDK. it means, literally, a transmission actuated by hand (at best). and, a hammer or chopsticks are also properly "manumatic" BTW, both my V-dub w/DSG and the PDK shift faster and just as smooth or smoother than any slush-box.

but PDK is self-actuated in the default mode, just as in a torque converter.

truth and accuracy are NOT prisoners of popularity contests.

we aren't talking about the same thing. in either case, "manumatic" is etymologically an incorrect description.

 

OCBen, we all like different things. I'm not trying to belittle your choices and preferences in any way. Your condescending tone implies a belittlement of mine and is not appreciated.

I'm fortunate in that my clinic has a huge parking lot with a 1/8mile straight between the employee and patient lots, a corner with a 30 foot elevation change, and a 60 mph sweeper with a hairpin at the end of the employee lot. My Saturday and Sunday afternoon drive typically includes a 5-10minute "Autocross " in my clinic's empty parking lot. My driving on the public roads has gotten pretty tame since I started racing.

 

That is certainly a good thing but I am not sure if the PDK/PSM interaction allows simultaneous braking and accelerating. Can someone with a PDK check this? Perhaps with PSM off?

 

I'd like to know the answer to this question also. The ferrari f1 allows it. Inability to left foot brake was one of the annoyances of the gt3rs.

 

Your misrepresentation of my earlier statement implies - I don't know what - but it's not appreciated either. Either quote me directly, or ask for clarification if you don't understand what I mean, but don't be putting words in my mouth to try to make a point for your benefit. That's all I ask.

That's good that you are fortunate to have a de facto track set up where you can push your car to its limits.

Again, that's an apples to oranges comparison. Two totally different driving environments. And I fail to see where you were going with this comparison by calling out my driving preferences in order to try to make your point.

My driving has been exclusively on public roads where I've never come close to pushing my car to its limits. So for me, it's the simple pleasures of motoring that put a smile on my face. For you, it's apparently the track environment that does it for you. If I were a track junkie maybe I'd have a similar opinion. But since I'm not, I have a different opinion. So there's really no comparison.

 

Huh? I said you enjoy shifting a manual car. Was this in some way an innaccurate inferrence? I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. Have a nice day.

 

prg, the inability to left foot brake is there on every drive by wire car I've ever driven, including all Porsches. If the brake switch registers a value, the throttle is not opened (much?) after a set amount of time. This is over ridden if the clutch is depressed allowing heel/toe. Actually, I'll make an attempt to try that in my Corvette before I sell it, didn't even occur to me, will report back. I know for certain this is the case on 996 C2 and GT3s, as well as 997s.

BTW, I haven't left foot braked anything since having an older turbo car on track for some of the slower turns to build boost, but never to rotate the car. Everybody has a different technique I guess. Good of you to enjoy your cars every day though.

Different data points:
I appreciate the ABS comparison. I prefer ABS, yet I feel better knowing I learned how to threshold brake without it, I still don't engage it on every turn but it's nice to have, particularly in the wet. I suspect I'll be saying the same when stability systems get advanced enough. In any case, I find it mind boggling that someone would say "it's a pedal you press to stop, there's nothing to it" referring to the brakes. I find it surprising (but admittedly less so), that someone would also say that they wouldn't take their sports car to a track because that may be hard on it. These are Porsches, I thought the whole appeal was that they can take track abuse. We don't have to appreciate the same things about a car, but it's amazing to me that two people that are fond of Porsches can be into such different aspects of them.

Me personally? I like my clutch pedal, the BMW SMG and the Porsche PDK make compelling cases however, and this coming from someone who'd never consider a "conventional automatic". Time sure moves on, and just as I'm not sad that we're past the days of carburators, it's OK with me that semi-automatics are inevitably going to get more popular. I still enjoy double clutching (which hasn't been necessary in some time either), or rev matching and so forth but I'm not blind to the ability to concentrate on threshold braking and rolling on power without the added cognitive strain of executing a shift with a conventional manual gearbox while doing so. That's what I like about the PDK, and someone else will appreciate the ability to throw it in D and forget about it. I think that's what's so good about the PDK over the tiptronic or others, it can be just right for so many people.

 

I wonder what would happen if Porsche designed the shifter for the PDK to look exactly like the traditional manual H-pattern or at least put in a shifter lever more like a typical sequential shift box found in race cars. Perhaps people would find this transition more natural????

I was a PDK nay-sayer until I drove one at PSDS and found the toggles quite natural to us. Not only that, it was a lot of fun. I'm not ready for one as I want to master shifting a manual in a track environment. In 10 years or so if I move up to the point where I can actually instruct others, I think knowing how to H-T will be just as important as most DE cars where I am are 'older' p-cars.

 

Oc's tone has been condescending from the start and incites debate. I see him as a provocateur more than participant in this discussion.

That being said I love my PDK and enjoy daily the utility in stop and go and its function in the quick right hand apex at my exit ramp. I use my car as a daily driver and don't prescibe it to weekend use only- perhaps that strips me of the luxury of debating the benefit of a clutch pedal