frayed

Booollschit. You think Z06s ain't engineered 'to the hilt'? Actually, the Z06 is packed with more technology and advanced materials than my 997, by a long shot. Oh, and last I checked, leather is not a structural component affecting driving experience.

That has to be silliest cut and paste I've read in some time. The lowly chevy pretty much trumps the pcar in every category except for brake technology. What point were you trying to make? My aged mind seems not up to the task of keeping up to the pace.

---------------------------

Bottom line: chevy is incapable of building a precise instrument. This truth has little to do with engineering resources, advanced materials, or <gasp> leather.

Sunshine

I checked out a Covette for about five minutes. I opened the door and looked around inside. The chemical fumes emanating from the plastics were very strong. I said to the salesman " It smells like a boat". The materials were cheap and brittle feeling and the seats reminded me of a black vinyl couch in a lap dance club.

pcar964

Well let's stop comparing our "ideals" of what we believe Porsche is, and what American cars are - lets look at what the reality is TODAY... From the horrible plastic abominations that they called Vettes in the late 70s and 80s, GM has come a very long way. And from the build quality and bulletproof design of 911s of the same era, Porsche has slipped some, too.

Interior:
Z06 - cheap, plastic-filled, cheap leather
997 - better than vette, but has its flaws too (plastic trim painted with fake chrome paint, etc) Overall better than the vette, no question

Exterior:
Z06 - seen up close, fit and finish is very good. transisions (glass to body panels) are cheaper looking, less refined design.
997S - comparable fit and finish, but has unsightly gaps (front hood to bumper looks terrible, for example)

Drivetrain:
Z06 - dry sump race motor from C5R, bulletproof transaxle, cheap to fix (if you ever need to)
997S - wet sump non-race-derived motor, weaker transmission, expensive to replace (not fix, because Porsche doesn't sell parts to fix, they want you to replace engine/tranny as units)

Feel/Driving dynamics:
Z06 - can't say, haven't driven one. HAVE driven a C5 Z06, which felt like a big car compared to the 997, but a very TIGHT and RESPONSIVE big car. Brakes felt solid, better than 997 I drove (could be due to 997 being stock fluid, Z06 was track-prepared)
997S - steering slightly more feel than C5 Z06, brakes powerful but distant, chassis very tight but kicked in PSM which I hate. and you can't shut off PSM.

By the way, if you compare feel and driving dynamics of either a 997S or a Z06 using an old 2.4S as the benchmark, then they're BOTH crap. It's all relative...

Sunshine

Is there a great sports car, under 100K, currently being sold in the U.S. that isn't crap?

JohnnyBahamas

Oh BS, that was perfectly clear. But, just for grins, let me walk you through it... I Used two cars engineered to the hilt as examples in the sentence. Whether American or German ( and in contrast to Boolala's premise made in that post ) the car engineered to the hilt with the more expensive raw materials is going to cost more. And I said they were both engineered to the hilt. What'd ya miss?

Now, here's the tricky part for ya I think... the premise from Boolala's question that making the decision to purchase 'more expensive' car A when car A and 'less inexpensive' for car B are equivilent, is, in my opinion, a flawed premise from the get-go because that premise depends on the assumption that the "expense" is for "equivilence" and that is not the case. The expense is NOT for equivilence unless the two cars are made from the same MATERIALS. Horsepower is better, speed is better, less weight is better but horsepower, speed, and weight do NOT account for the difference in price... it is MATERIALS.

Thus the list of materials highlighting where Porsche has materials that other cars do not. And, that was not a "cut and paste" blurb, I actually rattle that stuff out of memory.

In summation - It's all about COST. Leather and steel engineered to the hilt, even when America builds it ( which we absolutely CAN and I'm waiting... ), is going to COST MORE than plastic and plastic engineered to the hilt, even when Germany build it.

'stand?

fast1

In summation - It's all about COST. Leather and steel engineered to the hilt, even when America builds it ( which we absolutely CAN and I'm waiting... ), is going to COST MORE than plastic and plastic engineered to the hilt, even when Germany build it.

Implicit in your statement is that all manufacturers use the same pricing philosophy, i.e., cost plus a markup, and I believe that the statement is correct for most manufacturers. Porsche however is in an ideal position in that it has the ability to charge what it thinks the market will bear. If GM had that ability, there's no way in hell that it would be selling the C6 Z06 for $68K. Hence Porsche is by far the most profitable car company in the world, and that's an extraordinary accomplishment when you consider the tiny volume of cars it makes.

As I posted earlier I only had one driving experience in the C6 Z06 and its interior seems to be far superior to that in the C5. Hell I'm no expert in evaluating leather, but the leather seats in the Z appeared to be high quality to me. More importantly, the seats are comfortable and provide good laterial support. So maybe Porsche holds an edge over the Z in the quality of its interior components, but it's not that substantial, at least not to me.

mrsullivan

back to the topic...

having owned an 03 e46 M3 6-spd, I loved it... sure, its not a small nimble sports car like a 996 or 997...I am not sure that it is supposed to be... but it is fast, reasonably ok in the twisties with the right suspension setup, and oh what a wonderful engine... so highly engineered and high revving... 333 hp back in 2001 when it came out...pretty good for 5 yrs ago. One thing I have to give to BMW is that they are always pushing the performance curve...the new M3, M5, M6 are all going to be beasts with 400-500hp. If BMW had not gone so techno crazy with all the smg, i-drive, etc... I might still be a faithful customer

frayed

Techno I can take, the hideous styling I cannot.

pcar964

BMW has definitely gone INSANE with the i-drive, I have never seen anything more ridiculous in a car... Not to mention the new body designs are total nightmares. And if they only offer SMG on the new Ms, that would be a real shame.

I would assert that the 996/997 is not such a small car though, if you look at the dimensions compared to the air-cooled, they're quite large. And in reference to an earlier post about the "expensive materials" used in the 997, last I checked that car weighs the same as a "big" Z06.

rss997

I just bought an X5 4.8is......Simple interior with no nav and no i drive....fast , fun car to drive....and 20 - 30 k cheaper than a Cayenne turbo!!!

///Mous3

Chris,
Don't go there! The answer to your question doesn't need to go so far to point out the other makes such as the Aston.

Insist on these guys with 997S that your Boxster is every nut&bolt as good as their cars. Hack, ask these guys if the more expansive 997 GT3 or 997 TT would be a higher performance than the 997S.

BTW, do you recall that most 996 owners complained that their cars were similar to the "cheaper" Boxster?

Why do you think Porsche have designed the latest Boxster to look different from the 997?

Yes; Porsche do understand that majority of their "high end" users don't want to associate with the "cheaper car" even if it is the same brand; period.

It is fine by me; more must mean more!

pcar964

As mentioned before, Porsche is not using cost-plus pricing, they're resting on their brand name which allows perceived value to trump actual value in eyes of the typical new pcar buyer.

Slap a Calvin Klein label on some Old Navy jeans, and you can charge $120 - becuase to the consumer, whatever jeans carry the CK label, THAT defines quality (for them). All perceived value. So a new pcar buyer sees the thinner sheet-metal, the wet-sump motor, the plastic door handles - and they figure "hey this is a Porsche, so they must have built it like this because it's the best design."

Looking at the sales volumes, a lot of people believe it.

searching4996

Your 100% correct, Porsche can price a higher gross margin in their car due to brand equity. There is little doubt that the corvette is the better value purely in terms of materials to it's net price, just like most of those Hyundai's are vs a comparable toyota or honda. That said, i'd still rather have the porsche because that brand equity also saves you when it's time to sell the car. But that's purely objective "value". Subjectively, even though the vette is faster it still does not drive like the better car to me. There's something to be said for balance, and both BMW and Porsche do this better than anybody.
If I'm spending 50-70 grand on a car, I'd buy a used porsche before I bought a new Corvette.

GSIRM3

Well said. That is what is all about with Porsche purchases.

mrsullivan

after all this... i still think that the current M3 (sans idrive and bangle angles) is a pretty good value... something like 75-80% the performance of a 996 or even 997 at 55-60% the price...