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I don’t think we will ever see 997’s at the price point we saw 6-7 years ago. The 997 is an all time classic. As mentioned earlier in this thread, it’s the last generation of non VAG 911’s and all the other analog things we love about the car. There is one other point that was not mentioned was the electronics of this car. Other than the radio, everything else is pretty analog. As technology changes, I can swap out the head unit to the latest and greatest fairly simply, that cannot be said about newer generation 911’s. The technology in the newer cars can become absolute fairly quickly and image when the newer generations become 20 years old!
I absolutely love the 997 platform,and is why I took the plunge for an FSI 4.0 Stage II rebuild a couple of years ago, and I would do it again everytime.
I think the special cars like the GT’s etc. will be the collectors in this generation but the 997 will be the “enthusiast/driver classics” and will be sought after for all the characteristics we all know and love. If you know, you know.
Because of that they will hold their value really well and continue to be sought after for a long time.
Just look what happened "recently" (over the last two years)....to the 1980's 3.2 Carreras......Certainly the classic look and they are all special, I have owned three), but 219 Horsepower and AC that is horrible....
Just look what happened "recently" (over the last two years)....to the 1980's 3.2 Carreras......Certainly the classic look and they are all special, I have owned three), but 219 Horsepower and AC that is horrible....
It's true that the AC was weak with these cars even when new. There are good (modern) solutions to that today however - if having AC matters to you (and it does not to me in a car such as this - in fact, the AC components on my car are removed and in boxes.)
219 horsepower - yes. You have to put that into perspective though. The car weighs about 2,600 lbs.
The magic in these cars has nothing to do with achieving high speed in a brief moment.
The ultra-compact size of the car (you almost wear it); lack of power equipment; exceedingly direct steering and braking feel; low center of gravity; and the sound of a normally aspirated air-cooled flat six located just a few feet behind your back (not much sound insulation in these cars.)
There are a few outfits playing around with restyling and modifying 997s. Edit Automotive out of Germany has reworked 997s starting at $180k. RPM Technik out of the UK developed a bespoked 997.1. No big players yet but there is potential.
I really like what RPM Technik has been doing with the 996 and 997 platforms. IMHO, the one big difference we need to keep in mind when it comes to "resto-moding" these cars is that Singer has the privilege of using the 964 platform and is able to tap into 25-30 years worth of other air-cooled cars and pick and choose the best of parts, especially around aesthetics. 997 is only the second gen of water-cooled cars so there isn't much back dating to be done. I don't think anyone is asking for the 996 headlights on their 997, even though I like them a lot (.2 ones especially). I don't think there is anything particularly desirable from the 991 gen and more so from 992. So building a modified 997 or 996 will relay on some imagination around clean aesthetics that look in line with the era from which the car came from + plus some engine work. With that, I think RPM Technik really knocked it out of the park.
It's true that the AC was weak with these cars even when new. There are good (modern) solutions to that today however - if having AC matters to you (and it does not to me in a car such as this - in fact, the AC components on my car are removed and in boxes.)
219 horsepower - yes. You have to put that into perspective though. The car weighs about 2,600 lbs. The magic in these cars has nothing to do with achieving high speed in a brief moment.
The ultra-compact size of the car (you almost wear it); lack of power equipment; exceedingly direct steering and braking feel; low center of gravity; and the sound of a normally aspirated air-cooled flat six located just a few feet behind your back (not much sound insulation in these cars.)
Those of us who were lucky to own Aircooled 356's/911's/993's will always remember the simplicity and more basic engineering.
When taking drives from Seattle to Los Angeles in my 356 during summers, I had to drive in the shade of tractor trailers out of direct sun to avoid high oil Temps.
Some of the most fun times driving long distances. There's an exciting/fun aspect not knowing if you will make your destination which you don't get with 997 The magic is the smell of the hot oil after parking it in the garage
Last edited by groovzilla; 01-22-2024 at 06:56 PM.
Do you think it's a generational thing...that in a few years time our 997's will become just as loved as the air cooled cars are today?
Before watercooling or Digital Motor Electronics, before the Cayenne or Macan SUVs, before 4-door Panamera sport sedans, before Taycan EVs, etc., people appreciated the small car company that produced sports cars that were every young boy's dream. Now when aircooling couldn't keep up with the ever changing, stricter emissions regulations and power requirements, there was no other choice than to completely retire those engines in the 90s. That in turn made those cars something to be cherished and preserved. They were a big part of sports car history. The same thing could happen to ICE 911 cars and yes, the 996 and 997 as well as newer ICE 911 cars. People will always claim the newest 911 is "the last analog 911". Just enjoy what you have because it could become a thing of the past right before your very eyes.
Last edited by ZuffenZeus; 01-23-2024 at 09:23 AM.
Zeus but your missing something the 997 is limited numbers less baggage
plus the more a cars electronics intrude on driving connection the more coddled we become
I personally appreciate all the nannies in a daily or if I’m going after that 1/10 on my track time but
my get in and drive preference is almost always my early build 996 aero it’s raw no muffler sweetness
but it’s also only driven for an few hours every 2 weeks things would definitely be different if it was used more
the 997.2 turbo S is the last perfect balance for me
This is also why it's very unwise to treat cars as things that will make money. For most collectors, even if the cars appreciate in value, the ongoing cost of maintenance, storage, repairs, insurance, etc. probably eat away at most of this value.
Originally Posted by texass4
Yes, this! Head studs, blown air boxes, expensive valve jobs, leaks requiring reseals, rust! etc. Whatever problems 997s have (or may have) is not different than an old air cooled G body or literally every other collector/enthusiast car out there. We could start a thread naming every older collectable car of value in the market today and list its potential flaws. That would be a looong thread!
"collectability" inherently means some significant level of emotional connection. No one's emotionally connected to IMS, BS or any other...BS (pun intended). If ya want the thing, ya buy the thing. If the thing breaks, ya fix it.
Zeus but your missing something the 997 is limited numbers less baggage
plus the more a cars electronics intrude on driving connection the more coddled we become
I personally appreciate all the nannies in a daily or if I’m going after that 1/10 on my track time but
my get in and drive preference is almost always my early build 996 aero it’s raw no muffler sweetness
but it’s also only driven for an few hours every 2 weeks things would definitely be different if it was used more
the 997.2 turbo S is the last perfect balance for me
Ok, fair enough. Explain what you mean by "limited numbers"? I assume production numbers? Are you talking the very exclusive Porsche 911 cars like the anniversary or launch editions? Or, something like the GT3RS?
Overall, the production numbers are strong for the 997 (see chart)
Now, also please list what "driver nannies" you're referring to. If I'm not mistaken, Porsche used a DME are far back as the 80s in the 944 and OBD was available on the 964. Are you talking about modern safety stuff like lane departure, blind spot alerts, autonomous braking, etc. etc.???
Last edited by ZuffenZeus; 01-23-2024 at 09:48 AM.
I really like what RPM Technik has been doing with the 996 and 997 platforms. IMHO, the one big difference we need to keep in mind when it comes to "resto-moding" these cars is that Singer has the privilege of using the 964 platform and is able to tap into 25-30 years worth of other air-cooled cars and pick and choose the best of parts, especially around aesthetics. 997 is only the second gen of water-cooled cars so there isn't much back dating to be done. I don't think anyone is asking for the 996 headlights on their 997, even though I like them a lot (.2 ones especially). I don't think there is anything particularly desirable from the 991 gen and more so from 992. So building a modified 997 or 996 will relay on some imagination around clean aesthetics that look in line with the era from which the car came from + plus some engine work. With that, I think RPM Technik really knocked it out of the park.
Good point. Fitting newer stuff isn't easy. Car journalist Jethro Bovingdon had Litchfield install a 991 engine into his 1998 996.1. Seemed straightforward but it took major rework. The results, however, are spectacular.
You can see on the chart that 997.2 production was way down on 997.1 numbers. As others have indicated, the GFC put a serious dampener on the numbers of people ordering new 911s.
Total 997.2 production was only 76k cars vs. 137k for 997.1.
Because the PDK was introduced on the 997.2, far fewer manuals were sold on an already much smaller production volume. Hence how hard it is to find a decent 997.2 manual.
Originally Posted by ZuffenZeus
Ok, fair enough. Explain what you mean by "limited numbers"? I assume production numbers? Are you talking the very exclusive Porsche 911 cars like the anniversary or launch editions? Or, something like the GT3RS?
Overall, the production numbers are strong for the 997 (see chart)
Now, also please list what "driver nannies" you're referring to. If I'm not mistaken, Porsche used a DME are far back as the 80s in the 944 and OBD was available on the 964. Are you talking about modern safety stuff like lane departure, blind spot alerts, autonomous braking, etc. etc.???
01-22-2024, 10:13 AM
