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Anyone in the SF Bay Area running the Bilstein B12 Pro Kit and willing to meet up sometime? Looking to improve the stance of my 997.1S but reticent to pull the trigger without seeing and riding in a similar setup.
Although I like the idea of the coil-over B16, I fear the ride will be too rough and I have ridden in a non-S 997 with the stock dampers with Eibachs and thought the ride at lower speeds and on rough roads was “bouncy” and lacked composure.
My 2005 with 58,000 miles on new Avant Garde Ruger Mesh wheels and new P4S
I lived in the bay area and coilovers were WAY too gnarly for me on a daily driver. ...but one man's too rough is another man's acceptable level of harshness. The whole tolerance thing is extremely vague. I got sick of my suspension crashing around especially during the rainier times of the year where there are like 5000 potholes per mile. I also got tired of taking girls on dates and watching them cringe in the passenger seat and even make noises or comments on every bump or scrape. So, the B12 kit is much more smooth and is under 5mm or difference in stance out of the box. However, you will lose the adjustability to corner balance the car or make the stance EXACTLY perfect if that is your thing. With the OEM GT3 suspension I was running before (Basically the B16 kit), I noticed my wife was definitely harshed by it even with the PASM trying to smooth things out a bit. I could feel the PASM working but eventually, I just yearned for less of a trackable car and more of a street car while retaining the lower stance instead of the OEM safari look. @misterdega and I rode back to back in his car without PASM and the B12 kit and my car with the B12 and PASM. In normal mode, it is NIGHT AND DAY. PASM does SOOOO MUCH to smooth out the ride. In sport mode PASM feels a lot like the B12 kit without PASM, which feels a lot like the B16 kit or the OEM GT3 suspension (i.e. a lot more noises and crashing on bumps).
I can confirm @jamesinger assessment. It is why I am considering adding the DSC Standalone kit to my car. It makes that much of a difference. If I ever get another 997 it will 100000000% have PASM on it.
I lived in the bay area and coilovers were WAY too gnarly for me on a daily driver. ...but one man's too rough is another man's acceptable level of harshness. The whole tolerance thing is extremely vague. I got sick of my suspension crashing around especially during the rainier times of the year where there are like 5000 potholes per mile. I also got tired of taking girls on dates and watching them cringe in the passenger seat and even make noises or comments on every bump or scrape. So, the B12 kit is much more smooth and is under 5mm or difference in stance out of the box. However, you will lose the adjustability to corner balance the car or make the stance EXACTLY perfect if that is your thing. With the OEM GT3 suspension I was running before (Basically the B16 kit), I noticed my wife was definitely harshed by it even with the PASM trying to smooth things out a bit. I could feel the PASM working but eventually, I just yearned for less of a trackable car and more of a street car while retaining the lower stance instead of the OEM safari look. @misterdega and I rode back to back in his car without PASM and the B12 kit and my car with the B12 and PASM. In normal mode, it is NIGHT AND DAY. PASM does SOOOO MUCH to smooth out the ride. In sport mode PASM feels a lot like the B12 kit without PASM, which feels a lot like the B16 kit or the OEM GT3 suspension (i.e. a lot more noises and crashing on bumps).
No wonder why you went to a much more smoother ride. Pimpin ain't easy!
I have a 997.2 C2S (i.e. updated PASM), and added the DSC box last year. Would definitely suggest it -- it's a pretty noticeable improvement. Prior to the DSC box, I always drove the car in normal mode. It was a little on the soft side, but worked pretty well. Sport mode was essentially unusable on anything but the smoothest roads; it made the car much stiffer, but not in a way that was particularly reassuring. It felt like any significant bump or undulation in the road would upset the chassis if you were hooning the car on a back road (here in the bay with our ****ty roads, at least).
Post DSC, I almost always have the car in sport. Normal is IMO a little _too_ soft, I feel like if I were to hit a particularly bad bump in normal mode it would go straight to the bump stops. Sport is like a near perfect hybrid of the old sport and normal modes; you get the stiffness (i.e. less body roll, suspension settles quicker) from the sport mode, but the car handles bumps just as well as the old normal mode if not better.
I've been considering the PASM compatible B16 kit recently, I suspect it might be the best option for our cars if you aren't looking to spend 10k on the really high end stuff. They're compatible with the DSC box, and can both go softer and stiffer than the stock suspension. Not sure if they're better straight out of the box, but I think TPC might be able to help with programming the DSC controller and then a nice alignment w/ corner balancing should take care of the rest once you've dialed in your ride height. I think you'll also want (rear? not sure if front is needed) toe links if you're lowering the car.
My biggest dilemma, tbh, is that there are so many of these "while you're in there" cases with the suspension that I'd feel a little silly paying for the B16s and the labor to install them and not simultaneously getting something like the RSS suspension/control arm kit put on the car as well. Probably something like 10k all-in for labor, parts, and taxes... at which point I go back to thinking I should just enjoy my 997 as-is with a few simple bolt ons and put that 10k towards upgrading to a GT3 some time in the next year or two lol
Agree on the assessment smitrov. I was very satisfied with DSC in my previous 987.2 S. I can't wait to do the same with my current 997.2 CS. Also I'm with you on the thought process around extensive suspension upgrade vs just enjoying as is and instead working towards a GT3... We should be friends already!
I have a 997.2 C2S (i.e. updated PASM), and added the DSC box last year. Would definitely suggest it -- it's a pretty noticeable improvement. Prior to the DSC box, I always drove the car in normal mode. It was a little on the soft side, but worked pretty well. Sport mode was essentially unusable on anything but the smoothest roads; it made the car much stiffer, but not in a way that was particularly reassuring. It felt like any significant bump or undulation in the road would upset the chassis if you were hooning the car on a back road (here in the bay with our ****ty roads, at least).
Post DSC, I almost always have the car in sport. Normal is IMO a little _too_ soft, I feel like if I were to hit a particularly bad bump in normal mode it would go straight to the bump stops. Sport is like a near perfect hybrid of the old sport and normal modes; you get the stiffness (i.e. less body roll, suspension settles quicker) from the sport mode, but the car handles bumps just as well as the old normal mode if not better.
I've been considering the PASM compatible B16 kit recently, I suspect it might be the best option for our cars if you aren't looking to spend 10k on the really high end stuff. They're compatible with the DSC box, and can both go softer and stiffer than the stock suspension. Not sure if they're better straight out of the box, but I think TPC might be able to help with programming the DSC controller and then a nice alignment w/ corner balancing should take care of the rest once you've dialed in your ride height. I think you'll also want (rear? not sure if front is needed) toe links if you're lowering the car.
My biggest dilemma, tbh, is that there are so many of these "while you're in there" cases with the suspension that I'd feel a little silly paying for the B16s and the labor to install them and not simultaneously getting something like the RSS suspension/control arm kit put on the car as well. Probably something like 10k all-in for labor, parts, and taxes... at which point I go back to thinking I should just enjoy my 997 as-is with a few simple bolt ons and put that 10k towards upgrading to a GT3 some time in the next year or two lol
That's how it happens. More adjustments means more tuning and unless you or have a shop with a suspension guy to fully dial it all in, it's going to be a process. If you're going to the track a lot, it's good to have but if you're driving around on the street, kind of overkill.
I completely understand what you guys are going through when it comes to planning suspension upgrades. When I upgraded my brakes, my tech found one rear strut leaking. I was originally going to get some lowering springs but decided to get B16s since I didn’t know how much longer the other 3 struts would last. After talking to some Porsche shops, I was recommended to also change out the lower control arms to GT3 adjustable ones. One thing led to another and down the rabbit hole I went. Here is my list of upgrades.
Bilstein B16 connected to the DSC
Rennline GT3 style camber plates
Swift thrust sheets
Powerflex rear strut top insert
Motorsport GT3 Cup front arms with monoball inner bearings and adjustable caster pucks
Rear factory arms with Rennline monoballs
Rear factory control arms and toe arms with Elephant racing monoballs
Factory 997.2 GT2 sway bars
Powergrid drop links
The handling and precision increased drastically but it is still quiet and supple. I leave the DSC on sport mode unless I am on long road trips with my family. My wife and seven year old enjoyed the trip to Rennsport 7 on the new suspension. The last bits in the rear were just installed this week and I can’t wait to take it out to the canyons.
I have a 997.2 C2S (i.e. updated PASM), and added the DSC box last year. Would definitely suggest it -- it's a pretty noticeable improvement. Prior to the DSC box, I always drove the car in normal mode. It was a little on the soft side, but worked pretty well. Sport mode was essentially unusable on anything but the smoothest roads; it made the car much stiffer, but not in a way that was particularly reassuring. It felt like any significant bump or undulation in the road would upset the chassis if you were hooning the car on a back road (here in the bay with our ****ty roads, at least).
Post DSC, I almost always have the car in sport. Normal is IMO a little _too_ soft, I feel like if I were to hit a particularly bad bump in normal mode it would go straight to the bump stops. Sport is like a near perfect hybrid of the old sport and normal modes; you get the stiffness (i.e. less body roll, suspension settles quicker) from the sport mode, but the car handles bumps just as well as the old normal mode if not better.
I've been considering the PASM compatible B16 kit recently, I suspect it might be the best option for our cars if you aren't looking to spend 10k on the really high end stuff. They're compatible with the DSC box, and can both go softer and stiffer than the stock suspension. Not sure if they're better straight out of the box, but I think TPC might be able to help with programming the DSC controller and then a nice alignment w/ corner balancing should take care of the rest once you've dialed in your ride height. I think you'll also want (rear? not sure if front is needed) toe links if you're lowering the car.
My biggest dilemma, tbh, is that there are so many of these "while you're in there" cases with the suspension that I'd feel a little silly paying for the B16s and the labor to install them and not simultaneously getting something like the RSS suspension/control arm kit put on the car as well. Probably something like 10k all-in for labor, parts, and taxes... at which point I go back to thinking I should just enjoy my 997 as-is with a few simple bolt-ons and put that 10k towards upgrading to a GT3 sometime in the next year or two lol
I'm in the same boat ... PASM B8's + Eibach springs + DSC box on my '09 C2S (my mechanic tells me there's a difference between standalone B8 shocks and the B8's included in the kit... does anyone know?). Two front lower arms + one thrust arm had to be replaced during the installation. Decided to go with OE since I have a separate track-duty car and the car will remain a weekend toy. Spent a hefty dollar on the overhaul - around 6k incl. labor. I've been happy with the results, but fast forward a few months, I put on new shoes - Advan GT 18's. Now the problem is I can't find a beefy enough tire to fill the gaps in the rear unless I go 100tw's (there's no selection out there for 305/35/18s). So now I have my fingers crossed that the rear settles more, as I look towards B16s as the next upgrade to dial the fitment in.
Yes, putting funds towards a new car with better factory parts is the more "sensible" route, but where's the fun in that? Perhaps I'll find myself on that same path as I get older, but I choose and enjoy the mod path because it keeps things exciting.
RE: normal / sport mode - you summed up the experience in normal mode perfectly... over any bumps, feel like I'm riding bump stops constantly in the rear. So I keep it in Sport, which makes the ride very taut. The plan is to play with the DSC box a bit in the spring and see if I can smooth out the ride in normal mode. Would appreciate anyone sharing their success with customizing the parameters in the normal mode for a more compliant ride.
I'm at the edge of this decision too, and I've spent the last week researching my options.
My car is mostly for the street. Currently at 33k-miles, it's a '12 997C2S w/SPASM & LSD, DSC box, Gyrodisc floating rotors, etc. I've been aware of a gradual worsening tendency of the rear alignment to deflect under load (sudden toe-out, which is not nice). Upon inspection, the rear lower shock mount bushings are shot and the LCA wishbone bushings are cracking.
I don’t worry about saving toward a GT3. All 7GT3's are reaching the same age as our cars and will be wanting new bushings, rebuilt shocks, rebuilt LSDs, etc. So, you’re gonna pay either way. Carreras, even with upgraded suspension, preserve the option of a softer ride, less scraping, better approach angles, less clutch effort, and back seats, which are attractive on a mixed usage platform.
Having said that, I'm currently weighing options for more alignment flexibility & precision. My stock SPASM struts/shocks/springs with their higher .2 M030 rates feel about right to me, and I don’t want more stiffness, noise, or a lower ride height. So, I plan to retain them along with the stock upper dogbones in the rear, stock front tie rods, stock top hats all 'round, and stock M030 sways. Everything else may get upgraded: all four LCAs to 2-piece Tarett GT3 wishbones (with the rubber inner bushings), Tarett adjustable rear toe arms with locking plates, Tarett adjustable drop links, and Elephant Racing spherical bearings for the lower rear shock mounts (it’s one of the only replacement options on the market for that bushing, unless you buy the entire wheel carrier).
I’d love any suggestions/feedback on this plan. According to Ludvigsen’s Excellence Was Expected, the 997GT3RS4.0 used a similar mix of bushings (stock rubber bushings on the upper dogbones & front tie rods, mixed with a select few spherical bearings among the lower suspension links). Granted, that car had far higher (and linear) main spring rates, but at least in theory I won’t be totally off the reservation.
Anyway, these are all champagne problems... Fire away.
Last edited by quickxotica; 01-09-2024 at 01:50 AM.
I was about to ask the same question but for my 997.2TT. I guess no luck?
I'm planning on going Eibach with DSC as I read lots of positive feedback. I had a 997.1 with Eibach prior and my take is they are too rough over expansion joints.
Your plan to replace your rubber bushings and adjustable LCAs should give you 10 years of service. I was worried about NVH as well but after receiving info from Rennlisters like Petza914 who installed RSS stage 2 spherical bearings/control arms system for the complete suspension along with Bilstein B16s, it completely changed my outlook. I think Petza914 installed his over 10 years ago and they have been perfect for his weekend driven 997 and does not notice any NVH. Like Petza914's car, my car rides firmer but not harsh. I don't have any additional NVH but the ride is much more stable and the articulation on the control arms are much smoother. One thing I considered is for the amount of driving I do a year, 2-3K, the monoball bearing will last a lifetime and rubber bushings will degrade in about 10 years whether I drive it or not.
The Elephant Racing lower shock mount should not have any negative effects. I didn't change that mount yet but will install the ER version when I do. I bought the Tarrett adjustable toe arms but ended up not needing them as the stock ones were within range so I ordered a new set of factory toe links and installed the ER bearings in them instead.
Regarding the drop links, because hiem joint types like Tarrett, Rennline and Elephant Racing do tend to wear out and make noise I decided to spend a little more and purchased Powergrid drop links ($600). They are completely sealed and are built like factory joints so I plan for these to last 60-100K miles.
For the rear LCAs, I did not find the need to have them adjustable so I bought factory rears and installed monoballs. I have 43K miles and the original rear LCAs I removed have ball joints that feels loose with a little gritty feeling. The fronts were not as worn.
You will need to replace the front top mount bearing and the foam bushing in the rear mounts.
New factory rubber bushings will have a little deflection when new but will soften and degrade as they age and are used. I suggest finding someone in your area with a stage 2 suspension bearing setup and get a ride. If your car is a daily driver, rubber bushings might be the best but if its a weekend car the spherical bearings will outlast the rubber bits because they will wear from driving but not from age. Factory arms are expensive so cost to purchase spherical bearings is not too much more but your rear suspension will hold it's camber. caster and toe during cornering and braking. There are so many ways we can go with suspension upgrades so your mileage may vary.
Originally Posted by quickxotica
I'm at the edge of this decision too, and I've spent the last week researching my options.
My car is mostly for the street. Currently at 33k-miles, it's a '12 997C2S w/SPASM & LSD, DSC box, Gyrodisc floating rotors, etc. I've been aware of a gradual worsening tendency of the rear alignment to deflect under load (sudden toe-out, which is not nice). Upon inspection, the rear lower shock mount bushings are shot and the LCA wishbone bushings are cracking.
I don’t worry about saving toward a GT3. All 7GT3's are reaching the same age as our cars and will be wanting new bushings, rebuilt shocks, rebuilt LSDs, etc. So, you’re gonna pay either way. Carreras, even with upgraded suspension, preserve the option of a softer ride, less scraping, better approach angles, less clutch effort, and back seats, which are attractive on a mixed usage platform.
Having said that, I'm currently weighing options for more alignment flexibility & precision. My stock SPASM struts/shocks/springs with their higher .2 M030 rates feel about right to me, and I don’t want more stiffness, noise, or a lower ride height. So, I plan to retain them along with the stock upper dogbones in the rear, stock front tie rods, stock top hats all 'round, and stock M030 sways. Everything else may get upgraded: all four LCAs to 2-piece Tarett GT3 wishbones (with the rubber inner bushings), Tarett adjustable rear toe arms with locking plates, Tarett adjustable drop links, and Elephant Racing spherical bearings for the lower rear shock mounts (it’s one of the only replacement options on the market for that bushing, unless you buy the entire wheel carrier).
I’d love any suggestions/feedback on this plan. According to Ludvigsen’s Excellence Was Expected, the 997GT3RS4.0 used a similar mix of bushings (stock rubber bushings on the upper dogbones & front tie rods, mixed with a select few spherical bearings among the lower suspension links). Granted, that car had far higher (and linear) main spring rates, but at least in theory I won’t be totally off the reservation.
Anyway, these are all champagne problems... Fire away.
If you don't have a DSC controller, order one first and try it with your stock setup before chaining springs. It will make your car flatter during braking, accelerating and cornering. Its will feel firmer but will also remove the harshness when going over expansion joints. I used to cringe going over the joints but now it's like butter. I was considering getting TechArt springs before I decided on coilovers. I read that are made by Eibach but have more refined spring rates. But seriously, you need the DSC right away. It is a game changer for 997s. Best $1200 spent on my car.
Originally Posted by AltVelo
I was about to ask the same question but for my 997.2TT. I guess no luck?
I'm planning on going Eibach with DSC as I read lots of positive feedback. I had a 997.1 with Eibach prior and my take is they are too rough over expansion joints.
01-06-2024, 12:11 AM
Bilstein B12 Pro Kit - SF Bay Area
