kkarson

I'm considering purchasing this 2005 C2S out of Los Angeles. It's been a California car all its life, with 70k miles, Sport Chrono, PCCBs, adaptive sport seats, and factory short shifter. Brakes still have 90% in rear and 50% in front. If/when the PCCBs are done, I was going to just go with the Factory Ceramic Brakes Removal Kit from Suncoast anyways.

It's basically everything I want. I got a PPI done today, and it was found that the rear passenger shock needs replacing, oil pressure sensor, and front shock bumpstops are worn. Those are the only major issues. I also had them do a bore score inspection, and the tech said that there is some carbon build up and the compression ring seems moist.

Would you still buy this car with this condition? It doesn't seem like there's bad (if any) bore scoring right now, and for $40k, I think it's a great pick-up, considering the market, being a 3.8L engine with Sport Chrono and PCCBs
I'd like to know if it's still worth it, considering the condition it seems to be in now. I don't mind putting in the work to fix the suspension, especially considering the price.

Seems like some carbon buildup there?



Does normal wear & tear look like this? None of these seem to be deep grooves^


This is one of the only lines that really are concerning me

And this line

PatrickBateman

Following

sandwedge

I won't comment on the pictures since they're subject to interpretation and there are a number of members here better qualified than me on that. What I think you should find out though is what the build year is of this car. The fact that it's a 2005 with PCCB's makes it possible that it's a launch car since the 2005 997S launch cars came with those brakes. Is it black?

Reason for this question which I'm sure will come up sooner or later is that early 2005's had some issues with the IMS bearing and if it's a black 2005 997S with PCCB's, chances are it's a launch car which would be an early build 2005 with the small IMS that's been somewhat problematic. Failure rate is low but when they fail, you're looking at engine replacement.

The good news? The small bearing on the early 2005's are relatively inexpensive to upgrade to a much more reliable bearing.

Petza914

The cylinder photos with the vertical lines are the beginning of bore scoring or let's call that scuffing at this point. If those are the same cylinders that have the wet piston rings, that's why and if it's cylinders 4.or 6 even more likely. How quickly those lines get worse is anyone's guess, but at some point that car will need an engine rebuild.

As sandwedge says, if it's a launch car that has its original IMS bearing it needs to be changed. Factor in another $3,000 for the IMS Solution and to do that you're removing the transmission, so you'd replace the clutch at the same time. If it's on its original water pump, that will fail shortly too.

A launch car is awesome and if the botoscope pictures looked better, if say factor in $10k for the clutch, bearing, and water pump and get it, but with the sciff lines in the cylinder, though light, it's more of a crap shoot. You really need to see what those cylinders look like at the bottom as that's where scoring starts and may look cart different than what we see at the top.

kkarson

I know it’s not a launch edition car, because it is not black. The car was built in March 2005 so it does have the larger IMS bearing. The brakes still have over 50% life left so I’m not too worried about replacement soon.

The cylinder walls do definitely look like it is starting to wear, but how much useful life do you think it will have left?

has anyone had experience with any aftermarket warranties? I did see that Lasalle quoted me $2800 for a three-year 42,000 mile warranty that covers all components of the engine, including the cylinders and the cylinder walls and the pistons.

Petza914

Were those pictures from the bottom (sump) side of the cylinder or top? If the top, we don't know anything yet, except that it's worse at the bottom.

groovzilla

Have you confirmed the engine number shows it is a later style IMS Bearing?
Here is the 3.8L S engine# showing where the Larger IMS Bearing engine# begins:
The smaller IMS Bearing in the 3.8L motors are in motors up to M97/01 68509790 ---> Engine#'s from M97/01 68509791 forward have the larger revised more robust IMS Bearing.
The larger Bearing is much less prone to Bore Scoring and not really a concern.

From looking at the Bore Scope photos the scoring on the cylinders isn't severe but there is one cylinder wall which would be a little more concerning to me and that's the same 2 photos you showed concern as well:



I would be concerned about this scoring and will be getting worse and will effect your ability to sell the car when the time comes.
The 3.8L engine is much more prone to scoring than the base engine. There are lots of posts on threads about my personal experience on 2 997S cars which had horrible scoring last year and my current 3.6L Base had very clean cylinder walls at 107K miles.

Personally I would pass on this car. Scoring will only get worse and why not wait and find nice clean 997 w/excellent Bore Scope Inspecion results.
Many 997's are coming on the market and there will be lots more this fall and winter which is much better time to hunt/shop.

kkarson

These pictures are from the top, through the spark plug holes. That means itll be hard to tell what’s happening at the bottom, right?

it seems more and more cars are popping up on the market that have borescoring, no? Is it eventually an inevitable problem on all 997.1s at this point? I’ve been trying to do research and get a good gauge on it but it seems these problems keep popping up.

JustinCase

The jury is still out on whether bore scoring is inevitable. But one thing is for sure, many people try to get rid of their bore-scored cars like hot potatoes once they know they have this problem. I'll wager that the concentration of bore-scored cars on the market is many times higher than percentage of bore-scored cars among the general population of 997.1s. If there was ever a case of caveat emptor, this is it.

For people who buy to keep their cars forever, bore scoring is less of a problem because you can amortize the cost of the repair over many years, and it still remains a reasonable decision. For people who like to turn their cars every couple of years, bore scoring is a disaster.

Petza914

If the top looked like those two photos, the bottom is bad. Walk from this one.

The photos with the 1 thick line aren't the concerning ones, it's the photos with the wider area of a lot of thin lines.

Hella-Buggin'

Is this your first Porsche? I ask because although the price makes it seem like a "deal" you are opening up yourself to a potential experience that will be expensive and take time to fix.
It could get worse withing a few thousand miles, not likely, or it could eek out years of enjoyment for you. But, and it's a big one..... an engine rebuild is going to cost almost as much as the purchase price.
Just keep in mind that it is inevitable that that car will need a rebuild at some point. And that's the gamble. If it is your first Porsche try and spend a little more now to hedge your bets a little better.

-Mark

fourplates

OTOH, my engine was blown during an LN IMS bearing installation (at a porsche dealership) on my 2005 997 C2 due to a faulty installation. I had my engine rebuilt with nickel played cylinders + more durable components and am not worried about bore scoring ever again (but it did cost me 22k!). If you plan on flipping the car over a shorter time horizon, I'd probably pass on 997.1's altogether. If you plan on keeping it a long time, then you should factor in the cost of an engine rebuild and deal with it when bore scoring inevitably worsens (and you'll probably get several years of spirited driving out of it...).

kkarson

Yes, my first "real" Porsche. My family has a 2018 Cayenne S E-Hybrid, and that car has been great so far. But nothing like driving a 911 with hydraulic steering!
I decided to pass on it, per the advice of all the folks here (Thank you!), and the fact that any bore scoring is mainly going to be a long-term effect and I personally don't want to deal with doing an engine rebuild. If I am going to keep looking for a 997.1, I'm going to try to find one that has no bore scoring at the PPI point, so that I don't have this fear in the back of my mind that I'm constantly living on borrowed time, with the engine ready to implode at any time.
I'm sure that if I'm patient enough, I will be able to find a good candidate car that fits the bill, and has good clean cylinder walls.

I thought about buying it, driving it for a year or two, and then flipping it, but if all the buyers are going to do their due diligence, then I would be having a hard time selling it later too, and I don't want to deal with losing a boatload of money selling a car that we all know doesn't have much life left in it.

Btw, the engine number on this specific vehicle was 68511005, so it had the larger IMS bearing that doesn't need to be as much of a concern. Basically all bore scoring concerns at this point.

Also, the PPI revealed that I needed new rear shocks (leaking), front shock bumpstops were worn, oil pressure sensor was out, spark plugs need replacing, drive belt area making noise (possible pulley?), so all in all, the indy said it would cost around $5,000 to get back into tip-top shape.

Thanks everyone here, really appreciate this community!

groovzilla

Good move---> People who are impatient Porsche buyers can suffer greatly. But patients when buying Porsche (especially your 1st one) can be like defying gravity.
There will be lots of 997's on the market this fall and winter/spring.
Find a well serviced example with good PPI/clean cylinder walls. Many owners are **** about servicing and care.

groovzilla

You live in great location for Porsche buying! I try and buy my Porsche's in SF Bay Area or LA/San Diego
And FYI --->Auto Sport Haus in downtown SF is excellent Indy shop. Located at 632 Ellis St.---> Small but does the trick.
Frank the owner is x-Porsche Race Team Mechanic and has been in business at his shop for 25-30 years. Honest as hell and kind.
When I buy Porsche's down there I always have Frank service/oil change during my drive home to Seattle.
Gives him some Biz and gives me free overnight parking in safe garage - At $70/night for garage parking it seems to make sense.