groovzilla

On the Pelican Porsche Classifieds (check it out if you haven't yet) they used to allow comments in the for sale Threads.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/
Not no mo! Got way out of hand with guys slamming one another's cars - Was really entertaining but then they pulled the plug on it.

PJP13

Congrats to the seller!

is the buyer on here too?

I think someone got an incredible deal
here!!

Kg11

I agree: it is a lot of car for the money. It isn't the performance I like best about the 997, it is the wide hips of the GTS.

Doug H

I buy and flip (have DL no tax), but this car may not have been good for a dealer flip.

I don't think dealers are purchasing inventory right now and dealer would be looking at $59,850 with fees + transport and pack fees. Add to that, its seems like the car needed major/plug service, pdk service, serpentine belt and a PPI to make sure nothing else. There is just not enough margin right now for a dealer given the market and floor plans may be frozen right now for a lot of the dealers.

That said think a private purchaser would look past the services to get a GTS with 6k miles and no damage for $63k.

RE: Why I think $63k

Based on larger market and past sales. Great deals on clean GTSs with low miles (less than 20k) typically last less then 24 hours when mass advertised. 3 months ago, this GTS would have sold within 24 hours at $67k.

I would never sell on BAT and pay listing fee and plan on discounting car 5%. My buddies with high end lots that have it going on don't use BAT, but would if they they could do better on BAT.

If you say 12,000 watchers, I bet 10,000 + of that 12,000s are there for entertainment, to comment and have never once placed a legitimate bid that had a chance to prevail.

Most purchasers don't use BAT and are leery of auctions. Most want to put their own eyes on a car, drive it, have PPis, may feel more cozy with financing at a lot and etc.

groovzilla

delete

sandwedge

That's just jaw dropping. A 2007 cab with TIP and roughly the same miles getting about the same money as a 2012 GTS. Not only that but didn't coupes used to bring more money than cabs? I just narrowed my Auto Trader search to 2012 997 S so based on the -07 you found who knows how many other examples like this are out there.

Wonder why that GTS has been doing the rounds in the marketplace for so long and finally selling at a discount to older 997's with much lower original sticker prices. I know the two tone interior isn't for everyone but a lot of buyers like it.

raidersfan

Hi Sandwedge,
The car in question does not have a two-tone interior.

I think the answer really has to do with market segmentation. The cab and coupe markets are 2 distinct segments, as are PDK and manual buyers. They carry different utility values by themselves, but combined, that utility disappears. Furthermore, there is a lot of segmentation within buyers of the Turbo range vs the GTS range.

If you were able to find a manual coupe 2011 Turbo, it would be going at a huge premium. That is a rare car. Even a 6k mile 2007 TT manual in the right build would be every bit as expensive as a 2011 manual GTS. If you price out a 6k mile 2011 GTS manual in a perfect build and compare it to GTS that just sold (PDK, not great build), then find a super low mile 2007 997 TT and price it next to a coupe TT Tiptronic, you will see that the % discount from the most desirable manual car down to the much less desirable PDK/Tip is the same for both TT and GTS.

With the turbo specifically, mating it with the cab may not be the kiss of death it would be on the coupe. The turbo is already regarded as the cushier, more touring-oriented car. Not to stereotype too much, but a turbo cab buyer may be shopping for a weekend car or something they can share with wife/GF (not MY wife of course; she would never drive a slushbox). I talked to a guy selling a gorgeous 2007 Turbo cab 6MT last year: he said his girlfriend and he like to go on long drives, but she never learned to drive a manual. Kids these days aren't taught how to drive manuals, unlike kids of my generation which had a manual driver's ed car. With that logic, a PDK cab GTS may be more desirable on the market vs a PDK coupe. It seems as if most of the manuals were coupes, and the manual cab GTS models I have seen carry no premium whatsoever to a PDK; if anything, they take longer to sell. The few GTS cab manuals I see come up on the PCA forums take forever to sell.

Doug H

RE: Turbo Owners (Turbos ain't for old men, wives, girlfriends lookin for cruisers, they are for performance junkies that can afford them)

Back in my Porsche racing days (83-2008), it seemed like us racing guys all over the country all had 911 Turbos in our garages and wouldn't think of going NA. The NA 911s were just boring comparatively for street driving. Once guys make that step up to a Turbo, they rarely go back to a non GT3 NA 911 for street unless it is $$$ issue.

I am strictly a high performance guy and my daily drivers since 89 have been new turbos until I sold my 991.2 Turbo 7 months ago and picked up my 2012 GTS. Now I am on way back to another turbo, 992 Turbo. I like my GTS, but it ain't a Turbo and is lacking a bit.

RE: Manual Prices

True that GTS Cab manual may not carry a huge premium over pdk, but you cannot really generalize here. Depends upon the build, options, mileage and etc. Not sure about the sitting either. The few manual GTS cabs I have seen sold pretty quickly if decent build and clean car. Prariedog paid $7Xk for his and it was listed less than 24 hours.

One also needs to consider time of year. Cabs are slower in off season, but demand for them picks up in summer.

RE: Turbos and Manuals

Definitely prefer manual in something older, less powerful such as NA 993, 964, 3.2 and etc. To me, the manual is the lazy cruise through the gears on a windy mountain road with the top down transmission.

IMO, the newer Turbos (997.2 and up) are so powerful and so quick, the pdk is just a better match for them. It is like driving a later model Ferrari or Lambo with a manual. It just feels out of place in a high strung, high performance, low to the ground sports car,

groovzilla

Most Porsches for sale that sit and don't sell and are "known" to have been hanging around for a while tend to fetch much lower dollars. When buyers know cars haven;t sold and been for sale a long time I believe it really effects their value.
Also my opinion PDK isn't as desirable
Some guys on RL marketplace have cars sitting for months even years because they won;t budge on price and they finally sell when owner drops price to below what would have been a higher price earlier on. Cars get a stigma
Color also plays an important role--->I bet if that GTS was Silver/Black or Grey/Black and MANUAL Transmission it would have sold quicker and much higher price and never seen BAT Auction.
Some people will object and say we hate Silver cars/too many Silver cars but the truth is Silver or grey cars get premium price but Silver especially. Even true with the 356 and early 911 market that Silver commands higher market value..
I'm a Silver guy - German Racing color was Silver (Aluminium) and to me no better color.

Prairiedawg

I bought the car that checks neither of the boxes,a PDK cab or a manual coupe. I bought the one Doug is referring to, a manual GTS cab. Build is everything, with any of these cars. I watched the market for almost two years before jumping on mine the same day it was listed. It had a lot going for it options wise ($136k MSRP) and had every desirable box checked. 18 ways, full leather, matching seat belts, lots of painted interior bits, but not overwhelming. Completely up do date on all service and maintenance. It made an appearance on the 997 deals thread at posts 5489 and 5490.

The car remained listed with the Porsche dealer until the day I purchased it and they had calls about it every day with multiple offers above dealer asking price. (2 weeks between deposit and sale.) It was CPO cab in late November and was still drawing strong offers. I believe it was under priced at the time. I wouldn't compare cars sitting on PCA classifieds with low circulation. Most of the people who see those ads are other Porsche owners and not getting the widest audience. I suspect most folks who advertise there deal with the limited audience to keep out the riffraff. I still follow the markets and believe the value of mine is every bit of what I payed, even now. Is the demand for a manual cab lower, Yes but those people are out there and looking for specific cars, options. Mine is Speed Yellow, not my first choice in color and I never would have thought about that color. Man every time I look at it, its glorious. I get many, many compliments and the best ones are from are from people who see the 911 in that color and say they can't believe how good it looks in yellow.

Manual cabs still sell regardless, I have yet to see one listed that didn't sell.

sandwedge

My bad on the two tone. I just glanced at the steering wheel and moved on.

As for the rest, I agree with most of it except perhaps the never ending PDK/manual discussion. I just look at the production numbers and draw my own conclusions. If Porsche has built around 80% of the 911's they produce with PDK since it was introduced more than 10 years ago, which transmission do most 911 buyers prefer? No question that there seems to be around 20% of 911 buyers to whom anything but a manual is unthinkable.

What I'm sttil not sure about though is how this small pool of buyers affect the 911 market as a whole. As I've said before, typically, any product sold in different variations commands a higher price the higher the demand for it is. With this I kind of look at the 911 market as two separate markets. The majority of 911 buyers want PDK, have no interest in manuals so they won't pay a premium for one. No need to with so many PDK cars available. The minority though who must have a manual may pay a premium for one since so few have been built over the past 11 years.

I guess I just don't think you can make a blanket statement that "manuals carry a premium" because so few have been built lately and a small group of buyers may be fighting over some of them.

Doug H

$57K is definitely a sign of the pandemic times.

There was another black 2012 GTS pdk Coupe with about same amount of miles that on 10/24/2019 was bid up to $70,500 for a total purchase price of $74k. (not too bad for winter pricing).

That car was listed for $83k prior to being put on BAT and had at least a sift offer of $78k on here before being put on BAT. Car sold. . . . More reason not to sell decent cars on BAT.

A red GTS pdk Coupe with a tacky aftermarket tail and 19k miles brought $73.4k with fee on 2-7-20 (mid winter). The only other semi recent not wrecked GTS pdk sold on BAT was a sliver GTS pdk Coupe with 26k miles brining $72,500 for a $76k purchase price on 6-25-2019. (Summer pricing).

RE: BAT for 997.2s

Scanning 997 auctions (back to June 2019) and noticed there were very few NA non-GT3 997.2s. I opened a few and saw some damage and high miles. I wouldn't put a decent 997.2 on BAT as I have NEVER had any issues selling .2s quickly. Maybe 997.1 inventory is better on there, but the .2 inventory was generally not exactly impressive.

I had 3 offers on wife's 2010 pdk white cab within 2 days in December 2018. I flipped 2 other 997.2s for profit in 2017/18. One was a C4S cab that took about 2 weeks to sell, but I flipped another 2010 pdk cab in 1 day and received another full price offer and a couple of lower offers the next day or so before I took the ad down to make sure the guy showed up for the purchase.

Doug H

I purchased my white 2012 GTS pdk Cabriolet right when it was listed in October 2019 (listed after hours and called before dealership opened next morning) and I had just missed out another 2012 white pdk Cabriolet listed on a Friday night after hours in San Francisco. I called them 9sih a.m. Saturday morning and sent an email when no one answered saying I wanted the car. I got a call back within minutes saying they already had a deposit on it and were sending it for a PPI on Monday. It sold after the PPI. The San Francisco pdk cab sold out from beneath me had 18k miles and was $69k.

Lol, at all of those GTS cabriolets sitting around.

NevilleNobody

Will never understand cream or leather on a gts. A lot of american cars are leather with Alcantara delete, I just dont get it.

Doug H

I am not a big alcantera fan on daily drivers or work horse cars which my 911s are. Had it on a few other brand cars and just picked up another with it, but my past experience was it didn't wear well with a lot of use.

I also need cooled seats in my daily drivers and convertibles as I live in a hotter climate and had to wear suites and etc.