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Let's start with the 996. I would not buy one period. Frugly and the interior sort of same. So on to the 997.1. These are really nice cars.....with an issue. Fix the issue and it's just a really nice Porsche. Prices on 996 except GT3 and TT probably never come back. Think the 924 of 911 series. For a lot of years I wanted a 2.2 -2.4 S even thought had the magnesium cases, pulled head studs, chain tensioner problems etc. Once upon a time I could have bought one needing all that work but clean for under $20k. Today? Unaffordable. I also wanted a just right 3.2 since all those issues had been pretty much worked out. I almost pulled the trigger 5 years ago when a friend had that car right down to the color for $28k. Too slow on my move, Never going to happen again.
All this to say once you put that LS in a roller all you have is a roller with an LS. Never going to be anything else. Over its life span a lot of 911 models have had bad and expensive problems that hit resale hard. Years later "most" have made a rather remarkable come back. I'd like to see an inflation adjusted price for a early 911 engine rebuild versus a 997.1 rebuild to current day dollars. Might also consider the TBO on those air cooled versus water cooled engines.
I have been on both the up side and down side of the Porsche price cycle on air cooled and low production models, something the NA non-GT 997.1 will never see.
On the down side, I sold a 2005 CGT for $448,000, a 993tt S for $175,000 and a 94 3.6 T for $58,000 . . . and look at those prices now. I did only pay $$398k for the CGT and I made money off the other 2 as well, albeit not much. These car were hitting $600k to $1 mm at their peak, but have since come down. Out all of those, I wish I had the 94 back. It was black with Can Can red leather and black deviating carpet.
I made absolute mint off a 930 and a 993tt sales about 5 years ago and I only had $50k and $60k in those. I also did well on a 964 RS America I picked up for cheap in the early 2000s.
I hate to say it, but we will never see price swings with the water cooled cars like that except maybe the super low production GT cars and PERHAPS the 997.2 if the gen 1 9A1 turns out to be okay and not have these scoring issues. The 2009 997 turbo with the last Mezger and the 997.2 interior will be a good keeper with low miles and the 997.1 GT# with manual may eventually do okay, but not great. The regular 997.1s are too mass produced and with non-stock motors just won't shoot up in price.
RE: Engine Rebuild
Most air cooled engines have been rebuilt to spec. A Raby 4.0 is not built to spec or a stock engine. This will never bring the long term value in a 997.1 or appreciation, especially in a car produced in such high numbers.
Understand the financial restrictions. It's just such a short term one time fix. Sort of like an amputation instead of reconstructive surgery. It works. The patient lives but will have to accept a much different outcome that is not reversible. It's maybe just me but I'd sell the roller at that point and put $0.00 into the deal. Exit.
Not really financially justifiable on a 997.2 and the 997.1 is just getting to the point that it isn’t financially good to rebuild the engine. A 996 is a different story. Hopefully the 997.2 has a more reliable robust engine and nobody will have to concern themselves with alternative power plants. That’s really what it’s all about.
I hear what you are you saying, but think we would first need to see objective data in the form of several 4.0s on the dyno to really fully understand the value of the motor in a 12 to 20 car.
Whether prudent to spend the $25k to $30k on a rebuild depends on value and condition of the car. Perhaps if a mint 2008 C4S manual with 25k to 35k miles, then spend the extra $$$s for a Raby. Sorry to say, the new engine will not enhance value for 99% of those in the market to purchase that car. Rebuilds generally devalue no matter how good the rebuild is.
RE: LS
I am speaking more in terms of a higher mileage 997.1 or any NA 996 that does have a value of much more than the cost of a Raby 4.0. Why spend spend $25k to $30k for an engine in a 12 to 20 year old car, especially if the miles are gettting up there and the car is not mint or pristine. Sell the roller and apply the $25k to $30k engine money toward a newer, better car.
If you have a high mileage roller who value won’t be worth any more than the $25k to $30k spent on the Raby 4.0, that same car with a $12k LS makes total sense. You could definitely resell and recoup the cost of the $12k LS and probably even get a little more where you might not get the costs of the $25k to $30k costs of the engine back when you sell the Raby car.
In all candor, the value of cars with the Raby or the LS in all but pristine and desirable builds are going depreciate like a rock for the vast, vast majority of the market. The few people educated about this around these forums are not the market, especially since the few on here already have cars.
Well said. I would have no problem with an LS swap.... except so far it only works with a manual transmission. LS swaps are getting common in all kinds of cars and are bringing decent prices. I have seen them in Fiero, Honda S2000, 911, Boxster, BMW, MG, Solstice and Miata... just to name a few.
Well said. I would have no problem with an LS swap.... except so far it only works with a manual transmission. LS swaps are getting common in all kinds of cars and are bringing decent prices. I have seen them in Fiero, Honda S2000, 911, Boxster, BMW, MG, Solstice and Miata... just to name a few.
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Not so my wife drives a 2003 cab tip Ls1, and has been for the last 4 years. Probably the only one done, but if you have a 996.2 or 997.1 tip than you have a 722.6 Mercedes transmission.
Anyone want my 997.2 .....seriously !
It fulfilled my "bucket list" and have no desire to face the inevitable head-on because according to everybody here, even the experts conclude bore scoring will eventually happen.......its like tax and death, there is no escape.
Its the last of a drivers' car. 2009 C2S.(997.2) White, manual, clean as a whistle and does not burn any oil. Only one stage 1 over-rev with >50K on the odometer. I'm the 2nd owner and completely stock. It might be a good one for those looking for a 997.2 manual. They are hard to come by these days with this condition.
PPI is ok, but I'm not willing to let any shop do a bore scope from the sump. I don't think a 997.2 requires such invasive justification.
Henry - Perhaps your comment was tongue-in-cheek and if so please disregard the rest of this comment. If not, everything discussed here in regards to "bore scoring" does not apply to the 997.2. Period, end of story. Both Jake and Baz have stated this emphatically as the 997.2's 9A1 engine has neither Lokasil cylinder liners nor the soft piston skirt coatings. There is much confusion on this but this really has been settled. The engine is completely different in this regard, with changes likely due to what Porsche learned from 996/997.1 warranty engine replacements.
What has occurred in the 997.2 is a rare and totally different phenomena where the piston seizes at the bottom of the bore (like in Bronz's car). The 997.2 mechanism has absolutely nothing to do with 996 and 997.1 "bore scoring" as we've come to know it. The good news is that it's very uncommon and does not seem to be a systemic failure. I'd welcome correction from the experts but from following this closely I've seen less than ten confirmed 997.2 "seizure" cases total worldwide. In another thread Baz stated he has not seen a seized 997.2 in over a year (and he's a virtual clearinghouse in the UK much as Jake is here in the US). However, there is also a mitigation routine for 997.2 and 991 owners (with the 9A1 engine) who are concerned about this. I've followed both routines in my sold 06 C2S (92k mostly trouble-free miles) and my current 2010 TT.
I don't mean to keep harping on this as I've made the point in a few threads lately. IMO, the community is best suited by total transparency and accuracy regarding the failure mechanism, affected engines, risk, failure rate, and mitigation. Most folks on these boards are awfully smart in my experience, and deserve the most accurate info available so they can make informed decisions.
Last edited by PV997; 12-26-2019 at 12:00 AM.
Reason: clarification
Henry - Perhaps your comment was tongue-in-cheek and if so please disregard the rest of this comment. If not, everything discussed here in regards to "bore scoring" does not apply to the 997.2. Period, end of story. Both Jake and Baz have stated this emphatically as the 997.2's 9A1 engine has neither Lokasil cylinder liners nor the soft piston skirt coatings. There is much confusion on this but this really has been settled. The engine is completely different in this regard, with changes likely due to what Porsche learned from 996/997.1 warranty engine replacements.
What has occurred in the 997.2 is a rare and totally different phenomena where the piston seizes at the bottom of the bore (like in Bronz's car). The 997.2 mechanism has absolutely nothing to do with 996 and 997.1 "bore scoring" as we've come to know it. The good news is that it's very uncommon and does not seem to be a systemic failure. I'd welcome correction from the experts but from following this closely I've seen less than ten confirmed 997.2 "seizure" cases total worldwide. In another thread Baz stated he has not seen a seized 997.2 in over a year (and he's a virtual clearinghouse in the UK much as Jake is here in the US). However, there is also a mitigation routine for 997.2 and 991 owners (with the 9A1 engine) who are concerned about this. I've followed both routines in my sold 06 C2S (92k mostly trouble-free miles) and my current 2010 TT.
I don't mean to keep harping on this as I've made the point in a few threads lately. IMO, the community is best suited by total transparency and accuracy regarding the failure mechanism, affected engines, risk, failure rate, and mitigation. Most folks on these boards are awfully smart in my experience, and deserve the most accurate info available so they can make informed decisions.
Actually I have another GT4 in mind and can;t own 2 Porsches. So, the 997.2 has to go and already have plans to list it after the holidays. I know the 997.2s are not prone to bore scoring, I was just trying to make a statement on this thread that never seem to die with claims that 997.2's time might be next.,,,,,sooner than everybody thinks.....which is the mother of all "FALSE NEWS". With that said, watch this space (Marketplace) for a nice 997.2 coming up soon.
Not wanting to prolong this old argument but while you are enjoying the Christmas break but possibly still mulling over the different claims about bore scoring can I suggest that those really interested find time to think about the action of the piston running up and down against the smooth cylinder bore wall with an oil film in between them.
I would like you to think what it could possibly be that would result in a deep score or two appearing between them on only one side of the piston (the thrust side - so piston not expanded bigger than the bore and therefore not overheated), yet the rest of the bores and remaining piston coating being perfectly OK and running on for many more thousands of miles.
Then what mechanism would result in those scores gradually increasing with time and mileage until there are so many scores on that one side of the bore and piston that oil consumption reveals a problem, the area of the thrust face sharing the thrust load reduces and the load/unit area of the remaining piston face increases.
Add to that what could possibly cause one piston and cylinder (always on bank 2) to get worse first while others survive?
Lets put some links into it. Bank 2 runs hotter on the thrust face therefore piston hotter and oil film thinner under load. Bank 1 thrust face always cooler (technically predicted as a result of the thrust face being cooled earlier on bank 1 and proven by us by readings on internal temperature sensors we fitted) therefore oil film thicker under load.
If no one can put the pictures of the different modes of piston coating loss from our report on here than when I get back to work (where the files are) I will try my best - but they clearly show whole sections of plastic coating peeling off, bubbling away from the piston face, wearing and/or scoring - what causes the differences and is this significant? you work it out. They also show different coatings and how much more they wear before scoring as they are basically too soft.
The most interesting pictures are the DLC coated shinny black pistons with minute score lines in places yet with the rest of the coating on the thrust face still shinny and clearly not worn. How could that happen unless "SOMETHNG" got between them? If so what could it be?
The other interesting one is the bubbling showing coating no longer stuck to the piston face but still joined to the surrounding coating and the friction between the bore and coating insufficient to break that bond while running. What would cause those patches to suddenly be plucked off?
Finally think about why the Alusil engines (and early Lokasil engines) always needed a hard coated piston to run against the bores and trouble resulted from changing the coating hardness and bonding (much better from electroplating with three materials as Ferrostan is). The bores are not rougher than any other bore surface so there are no more sharp edges to rub against the piston face than any other type of bore - so why the hard coating?
Those used to 944's and 968's will have also seen higher mileage models with what appear to be wear patches in the higher thrust areas - if the surface changed colour - where did the pieces of material go to change it and if they went anywhere what resulted - as the only place they can go first is between the piston and the bore.
944 and 968 engines flow coolant into cylinder 1 first and it is forced to travel down the block to cylinder 4 and back to cylinder 1 across the head, but when the gasket rots it allows the coolant to short circuit and flow in - up and out again reducing the flow to the rear cylinders - and where to they eventually score or seize - yes cylinder 3 or 4 - why - well they are hotter and the oil film is therefore thinner back there.
Read up on reports on the Internet about the Vega engine and other reports on Alusil and you will find reference to silicon particle loss (but not where it went or what it could cause).
Read up on KS's report on different cylinder block constructions and read that they describe Alusil and Lokasil blocks and bores as effectively working the same but then read on and see how differently they were made, the sizes of the silicon particles (and proportions) and about open and closed deck constructions.
I could add in much more but when scientists research for answers they list known affects, influences and anecdotal results to test theories to see how many fit.
Whichever of those we apply to the theory that it is particle release that causes bore scoring - it fits 100%. IT ALSO MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ANYONE - I mean imagine what would happen if you tipped a tiny bit of sand down a bore and ran the engine? Would it last longest if the pistons had a hard coating or a soft one? would how often you repeated the process would effect how long they would last before complete failure? etc
Finally accept that there are too many variables in the quality of the individual bores, piston coatings, oils, temperatures, warm-up and driving styles to easily predict how long before bore scoring occurs - but it rarely stops the engine, can be driven for long periods afterwards OK, perform just as well and you get time (if it does happen) to decide what to do or get the money together if you decide to fix it.
Fortunately for new owners most can avoid buying a car with pre-existing scoring (as most will now test for it first) and prices help towards a reliable fix.
Finally there absolutely are some solutions and providers who do a poor job and others that make the result better than before. Research it well and you will easily find that some stand out. Unfortunately it seems a feature of human nature for those that went elsewhere for a cheap option - that they seem to embarrasses to then admit it when their engines fail shortly afterwards and they eventually find their way to a better provider to be don properly. Please use your common sense to realise that if Porsche got it wrong to start with it is going to take people with a lot of skill, experience and ability to improve on it. You also know that the more anyone deals with, sees and repairs the more different failures they experience and the better their reputation the easier it is for them to do an excellent job.
Those that do are always busy and they absolutely have no reason to warn or advise others about the problems and issues other than trying to help them make better decisions. There could even be a good argument not to provide any advice but just to let more and more people damage their cars and need repairs. It is easy to question the motives of providers but surely the willingness of some to try and answer questions, provide reports and videos and achieve good overall reputations must give a clue as to their ethical desire to help?
Happy New Year, enjoy driving your M96/7 - stop worrying - get on with it and choose well if and well you need help.
Baz DLC coated piston Peeled Ferroprint Fully peeled Ferroprint various stages of worn Ferroprint Early worn Ferroprint Lokasil pices enbedded in alloy - see the damage the shapes would do if released
Sorry - still not very good with these pictures and no idea why the DLC coated one is always small? Much more in our full report but I hope these help a little to enlighten those questioning my posts about what we found and how we reached our conclusions.
Actually I have another GT4 in mind and can;t own 2 Porsches. So, the 997.2 has to go and already have plans to list it after the holidays. I know the 997.2s are not prone to bore scoring, I was just trying to make a statement on this thread that never seem to die with claims that 997.2's time might be next.,,,,,sooner than everybody thinks.....which is the mother of all "FALSE NEWS". With that said, watch this space (Marketplace) for a nice 997.2 coming up soon.
Good to read, sorry to see you leave the 911 club but the GT4's are awfully sweet. As to not be able to own two Porsches, says who?
Baz - Thanks as always for your willingness to share such detailed information. Is the Ferroprint bubbling seen in the first photo something different from the scratching and pealing seen in the others? The scratched surfaces make perfect sense with free silicon grit stuck between the cylinder wall and the piston. The bubbling looks sort of like a manufacturing defect or maybe a chemical reaction as it doesn't look "gouged". Is there something different going on here? I completely accept your explanation for the scoring, just trying to understand if there are any loose ends.
Thanks again for your willingness to discuss this. On another topic, can you tell us how many "seized" 9A1 engines you've seen? Also, was there any correlation to the model year? I've got a 2010 9A1 turbo and the tech training material for the engine has this interesting description posted below. I'm wondering if this is typical marketing hype or if it actually means something with respect to the cylinder "shrinkage" you've described in the 9A1.
Whichever of those we apply to the theory that it is particle release that causes bore scoring - it fits 100%. IT ALSO MAKES PERFECT SENSE TO ANYONE - I mean imagine what would happen if you tipped a tiny bit of sand down a bore and ran the engine? Would it last longest if the pistons had a hard coating or a soft one? would how often you repeated the process would effect how long they would last before complete failure? etc
Finally accept that there are too many variables in the quality of the individual bores, piston coatings, oils, temperatures, warm-up and driving styles to easily predict how long before bore scoring occurs - but it rarely stops the engine, can be driven for long periods afterwards OK, perform just as well and you get time (if it does happen) to decide what to do or get the money together if you decide to fix it.
Fortunately for new owners most can avoid buying a car with pre-existing scoring (as most will now test for it first) and prices help towards a reliable fix.
Finally there absolutely are some solutions and providers who do a poor job and others that make the result better than before. Research it well and you will easily find that some stand out. Unfortunately it seems a feature of human nature for those that went elsewhere for a cheap option - that they seem to embarrasses to then admit it when their engines fail shortly afterwards and they eventually find their way to a better provider to be don properly. Please use your common sense to realise that if Porsche got it wrong to start with it is going to take people with a lot of skill, experience and ability to improve on it. You also know that the more anyone deals with, sees and repairs the more different failures they experience and the better their reputation the easier it is for them to do an excellent job.
Those that do are always busy and they absolutely have no reason to warn or advise others about the problems and issues other than trying to help them make better decisions. There could even be a good argument not to provide any advice but just to let more and more people damage their cars and need repairs. It is easy to question the motives of providers but surely the willingness of some to try and answer questions, provide reports and videos and achieve good overall reputations must give a clue as to their ethical desire to help?
Happy New Year, enjoy driving your M96/7 - stop worrying - get on with it and choose well if and well you need help.
Baz
Baz - Thanks for all your thoughtful posts in this thread. I agree with your analysis. For those of us with well functioning engines showing little or no scoring, we have to try and wade through the data to decide what we can do to extend the life of our engines. Any engine will need a rebuild eventually, we just want that to happen at an "appropriate" age (I prefer over 100,000 miles please). Where did you get that micrograph of the lokasil alloy? That's the best evidence I've seen showing this coating to be the culprit (fueled - no pun intended - by exposure to gasoline).
I just changed my plugs a couple weeks ago and scoped my cylinders and to my relief saw no signs of scoring (3.6 manual, 44,500 mi, SoCal car until last summer). I had an oil analysis done after 2500 miles of driving and it came back with flying colors. The ONE item that was ever-so-slightly remarkable was iron. I looked up piston ring composition and the main component is iron. Perhaps some cars have softer rings than others? Regardless, it seems to me that in thinking about prevention, we should mostly be paying mind to keeping our rings from wearing out, thereby keeping the fuel out of the sump. Jake tells us we need to be mindful of our injectors as well, but I don't think we would see wear more common in one cylinder over any other if injector clogging had much, if anything, to do with this.
It seems to me that a summary of prevention measures is in order. Here's what I've come up with after reading hours of posts on this topic:
Don't warm up your car at idle in cold weather
Drive easy and keep RPM under 3000 until oil is warm
Use a fuel additive to negate ethanol (which one???)
Change to a low temp thermostat (theorized, not proven)
I'll add one: change oil every 2500 miles. Why not??? It's an easy job and can't do any harm. What we're trying to do is extend the life of our rings, so fresh oil all the time is going to help as much as anything. All it may take is a flake or two of lokasil in your pan to create havoc. I'll also add using a 0W40 oil as opposed to 5W50 (slightly thinner makes for better coverage at low temps).
I'll throw one more thing into this crazy discussion - is there any correlation with factory (steel) IMS bearings and bore scoring? We all know that one thing to look for if the car has a factory IMS is metal shavings in the filter. We all agree (I hope), that scoring is happening due to debris getting wedged in between the rings and the cylinder walls. Seems like there could be a connection to me. I had my IMS replaced (early 2005 engine), and it was in perfect condition, and I have no scoring that I can see. Coincidence?
12-25-2019, 06:12 PM
