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Vu Nguyen (Executive Director, PCA) conducted a ~1 hr live interview with Todd Lamb and Brian Zellner from Atlanta Speedwerks
While there were some horrid audio issues during the first 5-10 min, it's worth persevering through
Todd & Brian provided their experiences diagnosing and repairing PDK issues (997.2, Panamera, etc.)
There wasn't any additional technical detail than already in this thread, but it's interesting to hear a professional shop's actual experience working on these problems
As regards failure patterns, their observations to date were...
Generally speaking, the failure rates remain relatively low
There's no obvious correlation with mileage, usage (e.g. track-rats vs. Sunday drivers), model, etc.
But when there is a failure, the most common ones they've seen are Distance Sensors / Electronics, and Clutch Rings (to a lesser degree)
As a general rule, they recommend an accelerate service schedule if you're tracking your car, or have modified it for high-HP applications
There have been a few examples in this thread of people damaging components while doing this job. We received an inquiry recently from the owner of a car in TX. who was searching for a replacement bearing because the inexperienced shop that replaced his sensor damaged his while reinstalling the housing. The bearing is proprietary ZF as far as I know. His car has now been out of commission for at least 4 months.
When faced with a distance sensor failure a car owner has 2 primary choices: Attempt to use a shop that's local and never done one or ship their car to an experienced shop that is proficient with the procedure. These are valuable and expensive cars so it's critical to objectively assess risk before a decision is made. What I find absolutely fascinating is the situation with the TX owner. He's an engineer by trade! He made the conscious decision to experiment with a local shop and it bit him in the butt. I believe his decision was motivated by convenience and saving money. (Let's be honest; It's always about money because there's nothing more "convenient" than calling a qualified shop and have them arrange to have your car shipped to them!)
Here's the So What. Only you can ultimately decide if the risk is worth the potential reward. (Remember: You are speculating on the reward; it's not guaranteed!) Here's a list of questions I'd recommend asking before making the decision:
1. Is the shop proficient with the procedure?
2. Does the shop have a good reputation?
3. Is there at least a 2-year warranty?
4. If out of state, are they willing to put 50-100 miles on the car before it gets driven or shipped back to you?
5. Is the shop well-insured and have secure indoor vehicle storage?
6. Does the shop have the willingness and ability to make a customer whole should something unfortunate happen?
The last one is huge. If a pro has been practicing his craft long enough, the inevitable will occur... he'll screw up. A quality shop will have the resources and integrity to cover their mistake. Period. Highly successful shops with fairly "deep pockets" will usually pony up and make things right should a mistake occur. Start-ups and financially-challenged shops simply don't have the resources to quickly make a customer whole should something happen.
Smartest one in the room syndrome is very real and it's easy to view through hero-colored glasses rather than objectively evaluate the risk before pulling the trigger. When it comes to expensive machinery the initial price of the repair can pale in importance compared to all of the other factors involved.
@PV997 That coincides with our process. We wiped the TCU before replacing the gear. It locked the transmission (we could not get the transmission out of park) until we followed up with a handoff procedure on the PIWIS. Our COBB AP could not communicate with the car when we completed the process. We are not sure what occurred. We contacted COBB support and they emailed us a code to re-marry the AP to the car.
1. Is the shop proficient with the procedure?
2. Does the shop have a good reputation?
3. Is there at least a 2-year warranty?
4. If out of state, are they willing to put 50-100 miles on the car before it gets driven or shipped back to you?
5. Is the shop well-insured and have secure indoor vehicle storage?
6. Does the shop have the willingness and ability to make a customer whole should something unfortunate happen?
While your overall intent is sound, may I suggest you're over-saucing the goose, a little?
Replacing the distance sensor in a PDK is not a proven, known known, process.
While we are collectively making strides to make it so, we are still not at the point where K-Mart sells the parts, and the knowledge is universal.
Your 1 to 6 points apply perhaps to Porsche's PDK replacement program, and any firm willing to similarly comply would have to cost the job at similar rates to Porsche?
In my case, my car was bricked, and was worth nothing more than its individual parts.
I found someone willing to attempt the T-Design installation, and with the excellent product from T-Design and their comprehensive documentation, AND my assurance I understood there was no guarantee, they were willing to make an attempt.
That it was a successful attempt is perhaps due to your overall intent with your wish list - they were competent, honest, and willing to take a mutual risk.
I will perhaps let others comment, but as we work through parallel issues on car type variations (997, 987...), seals, bearings (ZF vs. generic type), fixings (new MB stuff used in my case), caps (local supply in Japan available, but not it seems in all locations), tools (case end puller needs to be made, not available from Amazon yet), and similar, we are still in the beta test phase?
Getting close to prod though, and that is the purpose of this thread?
While your overall intent is sound, may I suggest you're over-saucing the goose, a little?
Replacing the distance sensor in a PDK is not a proven, known known, process.
While we are collectively making strides to make it so, we are still not at the point where K-Mart sells the parts, and the knowledge is universal.
Your 1 to 6 points apply perhaps to Porsche's PDK replacement program, and any firm willing to similarly comply would have to cost the job at similar rates to Porsche?
In my case, my car was bricked, and was worth nothing more than its individual parts.
I found someone willing to attempt the T-Design installation, and with the excellent product from T-Design and their comprehensive documentation, AND my assurance I understood there was no guarantee, they were willing to make an attempt.
That it was a successful attempt is perhaps due to your overall intent with your wish list - they were competent, honest, and willing to take a mutual risk.
I will perhaps let others comment, but as we work through parallel issues on car type variations (997, 987...), seals, bearings (ZF vs. generic type), fixings (new MB stuff used in my case), caps (local supply in Japan available, but not it seems in all locations), tools (case end puller needs to be made, not available from Amazon yet), and similar, we are still in the beta test phase?
Getting close to prod though, and that is the purpose of this thread?
I'll chime in here with some wishy-washy fence straddling and offer that you are both right.
We've had a couple of threads from folks who got taken to the cleaners by shops who claimed they could repair a PDK but it was pretty clear in hindsight they had no idea what they were doing (one was in Texas, the other in Southern California). If the owners had been really savvy like many of the commenters on this thread, it never would have happened. They would have known the right questions to ask and sniffed out the BS early in the process.
Unfortunately most of the people with broken PDKs aren't very savvy, they are simply owners of expensive cars who are being told they need a $20k repair. These folks are often pretty desperate, uninformed, and are easy marks for an unscrupulous garage. If someone falls into this category and are in the US, I would recommend without hesitation they ship their car to Todd in Atlanta or Beck's in Arizona. These guys are proven entities who have demonstrated they know their stuff.
Now when it comes to mechanically-inclined folks who are savvy, have read everything they can about the PDK, and don't mind some risk, then I completely agree with you Kuro. In fact, this entire post and thread was intended exactly for those types of people, like you, me, and many of the commenters. I wouldn't ship my car off as I would enjoy tackling this myself. But then I've been working on cars since I was a teenager, have a technical background, and am on my fourth 911 that I've always worked on them myself. Plus solving all this PDK stuff and the great crowd-sourcing that went on in the comments was a lot of fun and rewarding.
But after this post got popular, I realized that there are far more people that are not like us than are like us. These people aren't willing to do the research and just need a competent and trustworthy shop that offers something like @notfastenough described. So I think it all depends on the customer's mentality and knowledge.
Hi Pinkawa. How did you ended up fixing this issue. my 2009 Cayman is doing exactly the same error p1691 communication with TCU and u0101 and I can't get it calibrated. it fails calibration with the same error you got. was you able to fix this by replacing the TCU or what you did? help will be much appreciated. thanks
Hi everyone
I am having a lot of trouble getting my 2009 porsche cayman S getting it to spin the wheels, it starts but i would not go to any gear. I bought the car as is without any history of what happened to it. other than the battery was bad and also the recently a new set of key were programmed by the dealer. Reading your forum and this great guide I decided to buy a clone piwis 2 and another used known running transmission for parts, I did this because the exact same transmission 3.4S is hard to find and is like 8k. I opened the two transmissions and swapped the pdk position sensor, the wet clutch, the valve body, the two pressure sensors so pretty much all the electronics and pneumatics that can go wrong. all the mechanical parts looked good. reinstalled everything, refilled all fluids by spec and I still not able to calibrate the transmission. I keep getting error p1691 TCU communication, u0101, p1628, p1872 calibration invalid also u0401 and u0418 can faults. any help will be much appreciated
Hi everyone
I am having a lot of trouble getting my 2009 porsche cayman S getting it to spin the wheels, it starts but i would not go to any gear. I bought the car as is without any history of what happened to it. other than the battery was bad and also the recently a new set of key were programmed by the dealer. Reading your forum and this great guide I decided to buy a clone piwis 2 and another used known running transmission for parts, I did this because the exact same transmission 3.4S is hard to find and is like 8k. I opened the two transmissions and swapped the pdk position sensor, the wet clutch, the valve body, the two pressure sensors so pretty much all the electronics and pneumatics that can go wrong. all the mechanical parts looked good. reinstalled everything, refilled all fluids by spec and I still not able to calibrate the transmission. I keep getting error p1691 TCU communication, u0101, p1628, p1872 calibration invalid also u0401 and u0418 can faults. any help will be much appreciated
Thanks
Abraham
Hi Abraham - First question, was the donor transmission the same vintage as the 2009 Cayman (i.e. a 987.2)? For some things it won't matter but for others there are differences between the generations.
Assuming that's okay, it sounds like you have the same TCU phantom faults that others have seen when they make major changes to the PDK transmission. Numerous people have reported this and I've discussed it in many comments but we really don't know the specific cause. My long held suspicion is that the adaptation values that were generated and stored in the TCU previously (using crude AI based on the driver's habits) are now incompatible with the PDK as configured. My advice would be to use the PIWIS to wipe the TCU clean and reload the software, this will reset everything to a default configuration and hopefully allow calibration. Note that you should only do this if you know what you are doing and proceed at your own risk! People have bricked their TCU's and a new one will cost you a grand.
Before you do that though, those errors that start with "u" are canbus faults and usually indicate a communication problem with the TCU and the rest of the system (the ECM). The TCU does not use canbus to the PDK itself. Did you do anything with the TCU or disconnect it? I would try and get those cleared before attempting a software refresh of the TCU.
Thanks for replying the donor transmission was a newer 2013 vs 2009 but the parts that I replaced were the same part number and looked exactly the same.
I am not sure if I already reloaded the software. Using piwis I went in the PDK then under programming, it took me to a page that gave me 3 options cayman, cayman S and cayman R. I choose S, it did the process successfully, but not sure if is the same process you are mentioning, I did not see a wipe option.
Other question is if you trust a clone piwis for wiping the TCU or if it is extra risk, have someone done?
Yes at some point I disconnected the TCU from the harness with the battery unplugged do that can kill it?
First post, Hopefully can get some insight, @PV997
I am working on a 2016 gt4 clubsport. Transmission had a failure on track. When scanned fault P0841 pressure sensor 1 signal implausible. Found this thread, removed clutch pack and replaced the 2 pressure sensors behind it. At the same time figured we would update the displacement sensor with the t-design unit as preventative maintenance. Install went fine. Cleared all the faults out of all CU's and reprogrammed pdk CU. Filled and bled with tester. I keep attempting "calibration after part replacement" with our genuine piwis3 and it always fails at 83% on the shift travel portion of the calibration. In the conditions for cancellation the only condition met is "internal synchronize error" as the result. After it fails the calibration the P0841 fault comes back. Obviously the car wont move. Under actual values I can read the 2 pressure sensors and they are close in value and seem to be working properly. Im stumped.
I just tried with a PIWIS2 and got the same result. Fails at 83% with end condition of "internal synronize error." I also tried reprogramming the PDK cu with the same result.
I just tried with a PIWIS2 and got the same result. Fails at 83% with end condition of "internal synronize error." I also tried reprogramming the PDK cu with the same result.
Hi DBAMF, what steps did you use to reprogram the TCU? Was it like the steps listed in this thread (starting at comment 18)?
Also the "not plausible" error means that the TCU is getting a signal that it doesn't expect (as opposed to a short or open circuit which have different codes). So a sensor could be working fine but something upstream from it is causing implausible conditions. For example, a valve body problem could be causing low pressure which the sensor is properly reading. However, since the TCU is commanding high pressure (during clutch engagement as an example), the reading from the pressure sensor is implausible from the TCU's perspective. The fact that you are seeing the same implausible code after replacing the sensor suggests it could be something like this.
One way to test something like this would be to use the PIWIS to compare the clutch solenoid currents (which vary solenoid fluid pressure) to the pressure sensor readings. These are EDS1 and EDS2 as shown in the main post valve body section.
You might also want to check with T-Design regarding the calibration error since it seems to be happening during the shift rod calibration. I do not mean to say their part is causing it, but maybe they have seen it before and can provide some insight. It seems as if two different things are going on here, the implausible pressure and the failure during shift rod calibration. Perhaps one is causing the other but I don't see a direct link.
Edit: After posting this I realized that if overall pressure was low (regulated by EDS4) then it could cause problems in multiple areas. Just thinking out loud but it might be worth keeping an eye on its solenoid current too.
On second screenshot - those actual values for shiftrods look right for our sensor. I would guess Active P0841 error to be the start of errors chain...
PIWIS III is a no-no, we had multiple reports of calibration problems with it. Our installation manual has a warning about it in step 25.
PIWIS II is recommended . Also, sometimes it take up to a seven times to calibrate, so I'd suggest not quit after 3
Also the "not plausible" error means that the TCU is getting a signal that it doesn't expect (as opposed to a short or open circuit which have different codes). So a sensor could be working fine but something upstream from it is causing implausible conditions. For example, a valve body problem could be causing low pressure which the sensor is properly reading. However, since the TCU is commanding high pressure (during clutch engagement as an example), the reading from the pressure sensor is implausible from the TCU's perspective. The fact that you are seeing the same implausible code after replacing the sensor suggests it could be something like this.
One way to test something like this would be to use the PIWIS to compare the clutch solenoid currents (which vary solenoid fluid pressure) to the pressure sensor readings. These are EDS1 and EDS2 as shown in the main post valve body section.
You might also want to check with T-Design regarding the calibration error since it seems to be happening during the shift rod calibration. I do not mean to say their part is causing it, but maybe they have seen it before and can provide some insight. It seems as if two different things are going on here, the implausible pressure and the failure during shift rod calibration. Perhaps one is causing the other but I don't see a direct link.
Edit: After posting this I realized that if overall pressure was low (regulated by EDS4) then it could cause problems in multiple areas. Just thinking out loud but it might be worth keeping an eye on its solenoid current too.
I tried to reprogram the CU both way. We are lucky enough to have a few clubsports here so I stole a CU from another, Coded it to the vehicle and then reprogrammed and tried calibration with the exact same result. I will have to do more testing you mentioned on the valve body.
Originally Posted by t-design
On second screenshot - those actual values for shiftrods look right for our sensor. I would guess Active P0841 error to be the start of errors chain...
PIWIS III is a no-no, we had multiple reports of calibration problems with it. Our installation manual has a warning about it in step 25.
PIWIS II is recommended . Also, sometimes it take up to a seven times to calibrate, so I'd suggest not quit after 3
Yeah, I have run into many calibration issues in the past with transmission calibrations and piwis3 tried many many times with both the 2 and the 3 quite a few times already. Im not sure I did it 7 times but getting there..
I really wish I knew what that cancellation condition I am getting means. "Internal syncronize error". I cannot find anything related to it,
08-28-2022, 11:59 PM
