sako

original owner 2008 997s..68k miles, no accidents, now it’s mainly hpde/weekend car...only mods are gt3 control arms, numeric cables, deep sump and 3rd radiator. Possible start of bore scoring (no oil consumption, oil analysis normal, 10-20 sec bellows white smoke after hard runs at track once it’s cooled, aos replaced, slightly sooty pipes both sides), possible cylinder tapping sometimes after watching the rennvision video about bore scoring, may be paranoid.


I’ve heard raby won’t repair it if the engine let’s go due to too much damage. Questions is: Do I drive till it blows and sell as roller and save the money towards a gt3rs? Do I drive it till other symptoms show up risking having the engine blow? Or do I send it in and upgrade it and keep it forever....opinions? As a roller I’ll get 15k? Upgrading with fsi will cost about 30k for the stage 2..anybody do this upgrade? Worth it?

140.6er

White smoke usually means coolant leaking into the cylinders via blown head gasket. That’s assuming it is a heavier while smoke not vapor-like which would just be condensation burning off. Looks like a beautiful car, I would probably keep it, fix and drive it forever.

jeebus31

Why not scope the cylinders from below and find out if you even have a problem?

140.6er

I agree with Jeebus, I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Get the cylinders scoped, that's easy, then go from there. Are you losing any coolant?

rtl5009

No oil consumption is a good sign.

sako

Only smokes on start up after hard run..none during driving...No coolant in oil from oil analysis...coolant level never drops.. will get it scoped at next service

bgoetz

I think smoke on startup after a on track session is completely normal. Mine does it occasionally and I know the previous owner and it was quite common for him as well. It was just checked for scoring when I did the IMS and it does not have scoring.

rtl5009

What oil are you running?

JustinCase

I agree with the "confirm it first" crowd. In my experience (997.1 bore score, rebuilt to 4.0 liter), white smoke is not a common early indicator. I only got white smoke at start up 2-3 times *ever* with a severely scored #6 cylinder. As noted above, there are plenty of other causes for white smoke.

Also, I drove over 20,000 miles *after* I already knew I had a scored cylinder, and the engine remained a good candidate for rebuilding. However, I did monitor the fuel dilution in my oil, never had any CELs, and did not had detectable piston slap until just before I had it rebuilt. It gave me a lot more time to save up my pennies.

If you actually do have scoring and have gotten to the point where you need to do something about it, Flat Six is the most experienced and offers all kinds of tested performance options. That said, there are plenty of shops around with quite a bit of experience rebuilding M97 scored engines, unfortunately. I can think of 2-3 just in my region that have great reputations and lots (too much) of this experience. Consider that virtually all get the blocks remanufactured at the same place (LN Engineering), which is the critical part of the process. By using a reputable regional player, you save some money in transport, may save some overall, and likely get a shorter lead time. Maybe you can use all the money you save in this manner for better rods and pistons, IMS Solution, etc., etc. I don't know if they would share this information, but it might be worth a call to LN Engineering to get a list of their certified dealers in your area.

groovzilla

Who did the rebuild on your engine and what was the final tab with engine installed/out the door??
Any $$ back for the core?

JustinCase

PM sent.

Gadgetttboy

just my two cents worth! I felt a simular problem a few years back. Driving down the road, engine let go, threw a rod. Looked at options for my beloved 07 911 s and they were, sell it as is, have Porsche build me a new motor for 30k with a 10k discount for the same product that blew up at 68k, or go with flat six and upgrade my misery to an amazing platform that rivals even the gt3 of the same vintage. Both had their positives and negatives. Porsche: + discount from retail, warranty, rebuilt in about 60 days.


- same thing that blew up and only lasted 68k!


Flat six: + new rebuild with performance parts, warranty, 4.0, for me they are local and nothing but good reviews, cost was less than Porsche for more.


- don’t know anything about this process, never thought I would have to rebuild my dream car, a possible 1 year wait for the rebuild.




In the end I chose Flat six after talking at length with Jake Raby and his technicians. They gave me a sense of trust and professionalism that my Porsche dealer did not. I toured their facility and saw some amazing vehicles that were waiting for new hearts, most far superior to my car, and really saw the care and enthusiasm they put into their product. They made me feel like part of the family and updated me the entire time with their process. My motor made a bit of a mess inside so that is a valid concsern, but it was nothing they couldn’t handle. A potential 1 year turned into only 4 months and finally the day came for delivery of my 4.0 beast. AMAZING results and completely a white glove treatment for delivery... at first.





Break in proved troublesome as one of the products they used in the rebuild process had a problem. It was out of their control and only happened to a select few cars they rebuilt at the same time. Stayed in contact with Jake and reported an oil consumption issue that lasted a few months. Of course I was worried as any one would be with the dollars spent on something that’s supposed to just work. They even communicated with me as to a potential problem and accepted full responsibility if it was the case. This next part is the reason I’m writing to you.




Jake took in my car again after 4 months of brake in. A few thousand miles of my car on the road and In the mountains etc.. trying to run it through it’s paces and in the end, he just said let’s do it again. The gentleman at flat six apologized and went to work again and in a few short weeks tore down my motor, isolated the issue, rebuilt it again and delivered a perfect engine that revs like a dream and pours the power out in reams of smiles and excitement at every press of the loud peddle. Any one who just listens to my car at idle says, something’s not right there, what did you do to that thing? Is that a cup car?





Sounds amazing and feels like what Porsche should have done to start with. 5k miles later and it’s wven better. Tires seem to be the only issue facing fast. Currently I’m in the process of getting a 991 Carrera 4s that I fell in love with but will never sell my 997 4.0. It will always be part of my stable as my first super car, first ever engine upgrade and best expirience ive ever had with a performance shop. If given the same choice in the future, I wouldnt hesitate to do it again as it was never about a bum motor from Porsche but turned into a great reason for an upgrade and the ultimate performance mod from stock. Jake, if you read this, thanks again and let’s catch up again soon. Please forgive any misspellings or improper grammar as my thumbs screw up sometimes on this little phone! Good luck with your decision and best wishes!

Flat6 Innovations

Ok.. Lots to clarify with this one, fellas.

First off, it NEVER makes any sense to continue operating an engine with a mechanical issue. It will only get worse, it will never get better. It will ALWAYS cost more money, and you will never save a penny by operating an injured engine. That said, there are times, and circumstances where doing so is required, so if that is your case, and its the only means of transportation that you have, then you do what you have to do. I have been there, and driven cars with nothing but an emergency brake for weeks at a time. The classic was my old Ghia that used a bungee cord to hold it in 4th gear for 3 years before it finally repaired the gearbox. Of course, when you have to make these kinds of repairs for yourself, then it's more than just stroking a check, and the pain hits home in a different way.

Now, that said... The only reason why my Stage II 4.0 engine would ever cost 30K would be if the base engine comes to me failed. The current base price for my fully outfitted 4.0 Stage II is 24,500.00
This comes with Nickies, and IMS Solution. The Nickies profiles I use are not available with off the shelf packages from LN, because I developed this technology with LN starting in 1999, and I call out what I want done based on my profiles, and experience. The pistons, ring packs, honing, and running clearances are specific to my program, and always have been.
That said, it's one hell of a lot more than displacement that makes an engine. My engines are co-efficiently designed with cylinder head port profiles, cam timing alterations, increased compression ratios, and our proprietary "swirlmax" cylinder head alterations. That sounds really gimmicky, but it isn't.We learned a long time ago that swirl meant a lot to the intake charge in these engines, so we chose to maximize swirl, over tumble. We make more power with a 3.7L engine that most anyone else ever would, with a 4.0. We are now at 4.3L and 4.4L M9X engines, and soon the 4.6L will be offered. The 4.0 is something that we did a decade before anyone else, and it is a super well- developed engine.

My engine comes with everything it needs in standard form, without any options. The only options that are available are bolt- on components, or items for those who want to see mega- extensive track time, and need to extend the hours between routine internal services.

Now, back to the price. Yes, if someone operates an injured engine until it fails, then a 30K price tag is a reality, and often times the price is more than that if the core of the engine is a total loss.A core engine for a 3.8 can cost 6-10K IF you can find one. They are hard to find, because most fail the same way, so blocks, and etc are almost always wasted, this drives the prices up exponentially.

Dealing with failed engines sucks for everyone. The costs are higher, the timelines are longer, and the variables in time, and cost are extensive. With an elective build the owner does without the car for the least amount of time, the process is never an emergency, the costs are less, and I can dictate exact completion dates, and exact costs the day that we begin the process, not the day we complete it.
Yes, failures suck so bad that today I am currently not accepting engines that have catastrophically failed for the program. This means if someone has a failure on the track, I won't accept the job, because these are always worst case scenarios.
Failures that happen on the street, and are light (IMS Bearing, scored bores, broken timing chains, failed valve seats and etc) I do accept, because these have known damage levels, and if they happen on the street, then we can still manage the program in our standard way.

I have not been accepting engines that are "driven to death" with owners that know the engine is injured with scored bores, yet they drive it for thousands of miles, or for years with oil consumption, and knocking sounds. These cases kill the internals due to hydrocarbons invading the oil, and creating massive wear to every internally lubricated surface.

We also do not accept vehicles that have had engines removed, and disassembled by someone else. We must receive the car complete, with every component in place. People call us al the time and say "My local indy took the engine apart thinking he could save it, and now it's in pieces, and he wants too much to reassemble it." Well, in that case you fell for his trick, and he made 2-4K by disassembling your engine, disturbing my case, and along the way he likely lost parts that I would rather not have to find. We call these "trunk jobs", as the engine comes stuffed in the trunk in pieces. I send them all on their way, so if you ever want to work with us, leave the case as it is, and ship me the whole car- its the only way we will accept the job.

Now, to the OP... Follow my 4th video in the bore scoring series, and bore scope your own cylinders! That's why I took the time to show you how to do this with 80 bucks worth of tools, and save yourself hundreds of dollars. This is the entire reason I shot the video series, and moreover, the 4th volume in the series.
If you do have scored cylinders, you can drive the car till the symptoms worsen to the point you are consuming oil at a high rate. Hopefully by the time that happens you are already in my queue, and have received your shipping date for the car, and all will be well. Just don't drive the car to death.

With the smoke you mention, I'd do a crankcase nanometer reading, and look for crankcase vacuum leaks if the reading is below 5 inches of water column.If the reading is above 6" of water column, the AOS is suspect (but these units hardly ever fail on the 3.8)
With a pair of dirty tail pipes, the car sounds like its seeing increased fuel trim, or has tired injectors causing this...Or it has a performance tune, or other components that are driving up the enrichment.

That said, if the engine in your car ever pops, and you want to sell it, call me first. I LOVE the white 997.1s, and they are damn hard to find "failed". The silver ones always blow up.

No reason that you should have to spend 30K with my company for a 4.0 Stage II engine.

Petza914

You need to find out what the start up smoke is - oil or coolant. If it's coolant, could be a cracked cylinder wall that could become a D-chunk failure or hydrolock the motor and bend a connecting rod if it worsens. You can buy an inexpensive test kit on Amazon that will sniff out combustion byproducts in your coolant to see if that's happening. You say there's no intermix, but there isn't always if the coolant is slowly leaking into the cylinder due to cooling system pressure when parked, and then burning off with a cloud on startup and then continuously as you drive, but you would see some coolant loss in the reservoir.

Figure out the problem, if you actually have a problem, and then decide what to do.

Flat6 Innovations

I concur completely.

Also, don’t pay a shop to do the scope work. They likely won’t take the time to find what you can find yourself with my video. Dealers and shops miss these diagnoses all the time.

The issue could easily be something external, but the ticking sound should raise a big red flag.