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Old 01-15-2019, 01:49 AM
  #46  
Milo2361
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The email I got back from them said:
"Our NA software is calibrated for stock engine components only, we do not offer any custom tuning"

Guess i'm going to have to go for a Dyno Tune since I've got the mods. I'd love to go for a Supercharger made by them, but I cant justify $10k. I've found the supercharger they use stand alone for $2500, and they use a stock center radiator($200) to cool the air-water intercooler so I find it hard to believe the piping they supply and the intercooler is worth an extra $7300. My assumption is that they're basically recovering the cost of R&D at the $10k pricepoint
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Old 01-15-2019, 08:19 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Milo2361
The email I got back from them said:
"Our NA software is calibrated for stock engine components only, we do not offer any custom tuning"

Guess i'm going to have to go for a Dyno Tune since I've got the mods. I'd love to go for a Supercharger made by them, but I cant justify $10k. I've found the supercharger they use stand alone for $2500, and they use a stock center radiator($200) to cool the air-water intercooler so I find it hard to believe the piping they supply and the intercooler is worth an extra $7300. My assumption is that they're basically recovering the cost of R&D at the $10k pricepoint
How you gonna mount that thing? 😂 just the charger is one thing, but the parts that make it work are the parts that are difficult and expensive to fab up.

Moreover, 10k for the system is a fair price. I came from highly modified Miata's, where the entry level systems run you 6k...
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:20 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by cwheeler View Post
How you gonna mount that thing? 😂 just the charger is one thing, but the parts that make it work are the parts that are difficult and expensive to fab up.

Moreover, 10k for the system is a fair price. I came from highly modified Miata's, where the entry level systems run you 6k...
This... The $ is in the design and manufacture of the manifold. Do you have to drop the engine to install their system?
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Old 01-15-2019, 09:26 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by vern1 View Post
Well who says he's getting any HP or how much? I am sure the tune improves something but without pre/post dynos on the same car, who knows?? And i have my doubts the differences are in how they report. If you were a vendor wouldnt you put the highest number possible?
Not sure why it is hard to believe that these cars are not optimized from the factory, most cars are not. There are many factors a manufacturer wonít optimize the ECU for power including emissions, fuel economy, and to purposefully bracket their cars in a market area (i.e. who would buy say the GTS if the C2S made nearly the same hp or the C2S if the CS made nearly the same hp). IMO a tune is the single best $ for hp for most cars. If you donít like the feeling of that thought tugging on your $1k, that is understandable
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Old 01-15-2019, 10:14 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by cwheeler View Post
How you gonna mount that thing? 😂 just the charger is one thing, but the parts that make it work are the parts that are difficult and expensive to fab up.

Moreover, 10k for the system is a fair price. I came from highly modified Miata's, where the entry level systems run you 6k...
Um... and don't forget the DME control either. Forced induction requires a different or a piggyback DME to tune for the fuel mapping, also possibly a different MAF sensor to support the full range of values you'll see with the car at low or no boost (idle) and at full boost. What's the plan for lowering the compression ratio, which should also be done, but I don't think VF does this with their kits, and you need to take the intake air temp after the air is compressed and intercooled so the DME gets an accurate temp reported to it. You also need provisions for detecting detonation and tune so if detected, the car can pull timing advance, boost or both.

Slapping all the parts onto a stock NA engine without all the other stuff would be a sure way to destroy one, if you could even get it to run.
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Old 01-15-2019, 05:17 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by bgoetz View Post


Not sure why it is hard to believe that these cars are not optimized from the factory, most cars are not. There are many factors a manufacturer wonít optimize the ECU for power including emissions, fuel economy, and to purposefully bracket their cars in a market area (i.e. who would buy say the GTS if the C2S made nearly the same hp or the C2S if the CS made nearly the same hp). IMO a tune is the single best $ for hp for most cars. If you donít like the feeling of that thought tugging on your $1k, that is understandable
Not sure how you came up with that interpretation of what i am saying. And I will say (again) I dont doubt the tune provides some optimization but the question is how much? You can believe the vendors (whose claimed gains are all over the place) or you can do your own dyno work so you know exactly what you are getting. Spending $1k on 5 hp wouldnt be my idea of value but if its 25 then thats a different story.

I find it very odd that i dont think i have seen anyone here buy an off the shelf tune and do pre/post dynos to validate any vendors claim! People have run elaborate tests on measuring incremental temp changes on hot air intakes for gawds sake. People plunk down their cash on all kinds of things and then claim the ol butt dyno validates that extra 7 hp claim

Its like the x-files, I want to believe!!!!
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Old 01-16-2019, 02:20 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by cwheeler View Post
How you gonna mount that thing? �� just the charger is one thing, but the parts that make it work are the parts that are difficult and expensive to fab up.

Moreover, 10k for the system is a fair price. I came from highly modified Miata's, where the entry level systems run you 6k...
As I said earlier, I assume the cost offsets the R&D in order to make the system work for the 911. not sure why that's laughable?

Originally Posted by bgoetz View Post
This... The $ is in the design and manufacture of the manifold. Do you have to drop the engine to install their system?
I've done a fair amount of research on them, no need to drop the engine(though it may make some things easier). No modification the manifold itself, just adding the SC to the engine bay with the intercooler and associated parts.

Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
Um... and don't forget the DME control either. Forced induction requires a different or a piggyback DME to tune for the fuel mapping, also possibly a different MAF sensor to support the full range of values you'll see with the car at low or no boost (idle) and at full boost. What's the plan for lowering the compression ratio, which should also be done, but I don't think VF does this with their kits, and you need to take the intake air temp after the air is compressed and intercooled so the DME gets an accurate temp reported to it. You also need provisions for detecting detonation and tune so if detected, the car can pull timing advance, boost or both.

Slapping all the parts onto a stock NA engine without all the other stuff would be a sure way to destroy one, if you could even get it to run.
VF doesn't drop compression with their kits(not ideal), but that's probably why they've limited the boost to what they have. plenty of 50,000+ mile stories with no issues on these. tired of the "don't do forced induction, you'll just blow your engine up" argument. I assume VF is too, hence why they designed the kit the way they do. Is it harder on the engine? for sure. will it wear out faster? probably. but is it an instant engine grenade if you install it correctly? I'm gonna guess no on that because I don't think they'd be in business if that were the case.
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Old 01-16-2019, 09:54 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Milo2361 View Post
As I said earlier, I assume the cost offsets the R&D in order to make the system work for the 911. not sure why that's laughable?



I've done a fair amount of research on them, no need to drop the engine(though it may make some things easier). No modification the manifold itself, just adding the SC to the engine bay with the intercooler and associated parts.



VF doesn't drop compression with their kits(not ideal), but that's probably why they've limited the boost to what they have. plenty of 50,000+ mile stories with no issues on these. tired of the "don't do forced induction, you'll just blow your engine up" argument. I assume VF is too, hence why they designed the kit the way they do. Is it harder on the engine? for sure. will it wear out faster? probably. but is it an instant engine grenade if you install it correctly? I'm gonna guess no on that because I don't think they'd be in business if that were the case.
We didn't say that. In your post 46 you said you wanted to buy their supercharger and a stock center radiator and save $7,500. All of the responses you quoted in your previous message had to do with your comment about not buying their kit, just a couple of components and thinking all would be great, which is why we brought up mounting, temperature input, tuning, detonation prevention, etc. Having the supercharger unit itself is one thing. What are you going to use to add the belt that drives it, probably from the crank pulley. Out point was that the $7,500 you mentioned as profit for recovering R&D isn't nearly so as there's a lot more to it than a supercharger and radiator.

We'll all follow along if you decide to do it your way though - would be interesting.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:02 AM
  #54  
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And this is a system I am interested in! It's slick and has a great reputation.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:29 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Milo2361 View Post
The email I got back from them said:
"Our NA software is calibrated for stock engine components only, we do not offer any custom tuning"

Guess i'm going to have to go for a Dyno Tune since I've got the mods. I'd love to go for a Supercharger made by them, but I cant justify $10k. I've found the supercharger they use stand alone for $2500, and they use a stock center radiator($200) to cool the air-water intercooler so I find it hard to believe the piping they supply and the intercooler is worth an extra $7300. My assumption is that they're basically recovering the cost of R&D at the $10k pricepoint
Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
We didn't say that. In your post 46 you said you wanted to buy their supercharger and a stock center radiator and save $7,500. All of the responses you quoted in your previous message had to do with your comment about not buying their kit, just a couple of components and thinking all would be great, which is why we brought up mounting, temperature input, tuning, detonation prevention, etc. Having the supercharger unit itself is one thing. What are you going to use to add the belt that drives it, probably from the crank pulley. Out point was that the $7,500 you mentioned as profit for recovering R&D isn't nearly so as there's a lot more to it than a supercharger and radiator.

We'll all follow along if you decide to do it your way though - would be interesting.
I think the miscommunication between us is that what I mean is, I find it hard to believe that after buying 2 of the 3 main components(one being the most expensive part), everything else still costs that much. Not saying just slap an SC to the engine and call it a day. I get that there's obviously a lot more to put into it than just a supercharger and radiator. Seems like some piping (which doesn't appear too difficult to replicate) and a bracket(obviously specially made, but a small part none the less, and once figured out, should not be a high dollar item) sensors and injectors, and the actual intercooler(big part #3), then the tune. All of these things really shouldn't be upcharged an insane amount, especially once all the kinks are worked out.
that's why I assume the rest of the cost is mark up to cover R&D on the total system. I've seen supercharger piping kits for lesser cars than ours in the $200-300 range(intake pipe to SC, SC to intercooler, intercooler to intake manifold), probably made of the exact same material. Obviously the ones for the VF kit are specific lengths/diameters/ bends so there would be some mark up, but I wouldnt expect them to be a gigantic difference in overall cost over a kit made of the exact same stuff for another car. If you look at the kit on VF's website it has 22 total parts (27 if you count each injector individually).
realistically best option in the case of an SC would be to find a good used kit

Last edited by Milo2361; 01-17-2019 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 01-16-2019, 10:55 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Milo2361 View Post
realistically best option in the case of an SC would be to find a good used kit
Yep, they're out there from time to time in the marketplace and aren't usually fast movers. At one time I did some research on a TPC one that came available going so far as to start looking into the installation instructions and then decided I wasn't doing to do it on my wife's car.

Here's are pictures of the parts that are part of the RUF setup on my car as shown on their marketing engine at release. Everything shown in green or yellow has been changed from stock.







And also attached here are those installation instructions on the other kit (TPC) I was looking at briefly if you want to get an idea of what's involved.

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Old 01-18-2019, 11:25 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by bgoetz View Post
IDK about the 997, but with the S2000 a simple flash on a stock motor was hands down the best $/hp you could get and that car was pretty well maxed for potential right from the factory. It isnít just about overall hp gains as much as it is gains throughout the power band.
I had an S2000 built by Ballade Motorsports who did it with Autowave. It was a good $4-5k dumped into keeping it 'safe' to bounce off the rev limiter and chasing power with bolt-ons. I don't remember everything done now, but with full head work, straight pipes, intake, intake manifold, throttle body and a stand alone AEM EMS ecu the car with ~50,000 miles dynoed with a peak 217 whp. That's about a 10 crank hp increase over factory albeit for most of the curve. So I wouldn't say it was the best bang for the buck. But you're right about power band; shifting the torque down the curve gave an extra average 20+ ft lbs between around 3,000 rpms up to near redline and made the car fly at autocross. That F20 felt like a different engine and could be driven a little, uh, easier, while still enjoying 9,000 rpms all day long with back to back drivers.

Originally Posted by vf-engineering View Post

We are a California company, so we test and tune specifically on CA 91 Octane.

As shared in the review above, we do make some minor changes to throttle
response which we feel improves power delivery without affecting drivability.

A few quick Q's:

So I'm in Corona down the street from you guys - do you have a dyno in house that I could do a before and after with?

On the website it says stock car, would a BMC air filter, IPD plenum (factory TB) and forthcoming RSS harmonic damped underdrive pulley still have the car classified as 'stock?'

Lastly on the throttle response, can this be tailored in the tune? I actually want something opposed of sharped up throttle response, the anti-sprint booster if you will. I would like a straight linear relationship between the pedal position and power i.e. only at WOT should the car be performing 100% that way there is more resolution with the throttle pedal and engine power trim. Right now with just stock it feels like when I'm around 60-70% pedal depression the car is at 100% power. Of course, I don't want there to be a delay between call and response.

Originally Posted by Petza914 View Post
And also attached here are those installation instructions on the other kit (TPC) I was looking at briefly if you want to get an idea of what's involved.
Holy Moly that is one crazy process. I couldn't imagine doing this install with the motor still attached. Definitely raised the 'respect' level of the labor involved for a supercharger install. Yowza!

I remember Greddy made a California legal turbo kit for the first generation 1.6l Miata and I thought it was the coolest thing. It was 4.5 psi, non-intercooled and msrp'd for about $900 when they sold the kit. Install took a half day, I believe you needed to tap the motor for an oil return line, came with a fuel pressure riser and the common cheat was to install a bipes timing unit and small fmic off an rx-7 (little square unit!) to hit 6 lbs of boost. Car would dyno in around 150 whp and up to 170 whp with the mods and larger 2" exhaust which was huge when the car would only do about 90 whp as-is. Folks hated it for being such a small turbo and complained the manifold was garbage and it was - needed relief cuts and new hardware, but for $900 and some change giving that little rev happy 1.6l motor some mid-range torque to get its tail out on power increased its smiles per miles three fold. Anyways, reading over the instruction made me appreciate how convenient that Miata kit was!
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:29 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Appraiser View Post
I had an S2000 built by Ballade Motorsports who did it with Autowave. It was a good $4-5k dumped into keeping it 'safe' to bounce off the rev limiter and chasing power with bolt-ons. I don't remember everything done now, but with full head work, straight pipes, intake, intake manifold, throttle body and a stand alone AEM EMS ecu the car with ~50,000 miles dynoed with a peak 217 whp. That's about a 10 crank hp increase over factory albeit for most of the curve. So I wouldn't say it was the best bang for the buck. But you're right about power band; shifting the torque down the curve gave an extra average 20+ ft lbs between around 3,000 rpms up to near redline and made the car fly at autocross. That F20 felt like a different engine and could be driven a little, uh, easier, while still enjoying 9,000 rpms all day long with back to back drivers.
!
That seems low for all you did. Mine just has bolt ons and a VAFC and it made 206whp on a fairly conservative dyno. I had a 2006 that made 210 whp stock. While I never flashed it, a simple flash would make 220+whp. $700 for 10whp and as you mentioned a big change to the power band is a great $ to hp IMO.

Even if the 911 gains 10whp what other mod would get that for the $$?
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:42 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by bgoetz View Post


That seems low for all you did. Mine just has bolt ons and a VAFC and it made 206whp on a fairly conservative dyno. I had a 2006 that made 210 whp stock. While I never flashed it, a simple flash would make 220+whp. $700 for 10whp and as you mentioned a big change to the power band is a great $ to hp IMO.

Even if the 911 gains 10whp what other mod would get that for the $$?
Not sure where the $700 came from...?

My anecdote was to highlight the point that it took several thousand to get a "meaningful" performance increase out of that Honda F20. I'd have to dig out the dyno sheet to see what the stock number was, I want to say 204-ish. In my experience it wasn't as simple as a few hundred flash for 220 whp and all was good. I would expect the same or more for high caliber cars such as the Boxster or 911. I'm sure you get what I mean when I say meaningful (material delta at all rpms used).

I'm in the camp that believes Porsche wouldn't have left meaningful power on the table if the cost/benefit didn't support it. I dunno if I buy the emissions arguments; gearing, ancillary components for startup/temperature, filters, etc. play more to that than engine tuning in my completely uneducated opinion.

A meaningful 10 whp increase across the usable power band is hard to find on relatively modern naturally aspirated cars with aftermarket parts. And there's plenty of Boxster race cars out there every weekend trying to find it!
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Old 01-19-2019, 01:03 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by bgoetz
That seems low for all you did. Mine just has bolt ons and a VAFC and it made 206whp on a fairly conservative dyno. I had a 2006 that made 210 whp stock. While I never flashed it, a simple flash would make 220+whp. $700 for 10whp and as you mentioned a big change to the power band is a great $ to hp IMO.

Even if the 911 gains 10whp what other mod would get that for the $$?
Yes!!! I had that Greddy system. Had it for years! And it was quick. Added an FM ecu, added Intercooler, ran 12-15psi for probably 50k miles before the turbine started hitting the housing. Then changed over to a used fm kit that ran until the car hit over 200k miles and I sold it to my little brother. Great system.
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