powdrhound

I'm pretty sure those not Porsche Motorsport mounts but rather MODE upper mounts which are marketed as "Motorsport Design" by Mode. Mode is a US company not affiliated with Porsche Motorsport in any form or fashion. It's a good product none the less.

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/m...8-p-65996.html

http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/m...5-p-52996.html

wross996tt

He installed Moton Street sports...I don't think he is going to be doing what your picture shows....if he is on the street then he is an idiot....LOL

mdd

The picture of the unloaded spring was likely taken with both front wheels off the ground and on jack stands.

Keep in mind that when in a hard corner, the front sway bar will keep the inside strut/spring compressed. The outside spring will be compressed by the cornering force and the sway bar will transfer some of that displacement to the other side.

So this statement is not accurate: "you will develop enough force to actually unweight the inside front wheel where the suspension will be totally extended as it is when up on jacks."

powdrhound

What kind of logic is that?? His avatar shows his car at the track but he won't be driving it hard? Hmm. He is running spring rates almost 3x as stiff as a stock TT but he won't be cornering hard? Hmmm. The Moton Street Sports are an identical shock to the Clubsports with the only difference being that they are single v. double adjustable. The Street sports are infinitely better shocks than the PSS10s and plenty of people run the snot out of those at the track with much softer rates. Plenty of GT2/3 guys drive the heck out of their cars on the nonadjustable OEM coilovers. I'm pretty sure that the Moton Street Sport shock don't come with any king of a warning advising against track use.

All kidding aside, all I was getting at is that no matter what your suspension is set up for, weekend cars n coffee queen or hardcore track toy, your springs should not be allowed to come unseated from their perches during any point in the available suspension travel.

powdrhound

A sway bar is generally not stiff enough to keep the strut /spring compressed unless run super stiff which is normally not the case of the TT. Jack up one side of the car and see for yourself. Also, numerous people have run the TT with the front bar on soft for completely disconnected to reduce understeer......Heavy Chevy is one of them I believe. I run JRZs with 600/800 rates and H&R sways. I get the same amount of droop on the wheel whether I jack up one side or the whole car, about 3 inches. The shock goes to its full extension in either case. If I did not have helper springs I would get the exact same result you see here. Keep in mind that a 600 lb. spring on the front of a TT will only compress a little over 1.0" with the weight of the car since each front corner is supporting about 700 lbs. So if your suspension extends more than 1", and it will, than the spring will come off its perches without helpers. In any case, I guess Bilstein, H&R, JRZ, KW, etc., are are wasting their time putting helper springs on their set up when they could just let the springs dangle....

nick49

For whatever reason, this is not right. I wrench for a living and know suspensions pretty well.

It's not right on an F150, a Jeep, a Subaru or a Porsche. No matter if an OE suspension or Ohlins coilovers, or anything in between.

And BTW, all my Porsche's for the last few decades lift a tire when angling through a moderately deep gutter to dip. There is no way I want the spring to be shorter than the distance between the seat and adjustment collar. It's not the right way to do it.

This is the way some guys lower cars and motorcycles that are on an extreme budget.

powdrhound

Exactly! We have a winner!!! You are correct sir. I don't see why it's so hard for others to see the obvious when generally you have some bright minds on these forums......

mdd

Well, that's not how my car with stock suspension works. If I jack one side off the ground, the strut does not come close to full extension. The sway bar is the only thing keeping it up. Once the other side is raised, both struts are then fully extended and the sway bar relaxed again.
I'm not disputing the value of the of helper springs, just stating that when in a hard corner lifting the inside wheel, it's not just hanging there like it would be on jack stands (unless you have the sway bar disconnected). The sway bar will keep the spring from coming loose.
I am in the middle of installing PSS10s on my car now, obviously with helper springs.
Just read this about helper springs:"Many of the German coil over kits will come from the factory with some type of helper or tender spring because the TUV mandates that springs must stay tight in the perches even with the spring perches turned to their lowest setting" Interesting.
Added link: http://www.e30m3project.com/e30m3per...ings/index.htm

wross996tt

while the car is in motion I think you should add...LOL

Completely agree...only problem with your logic is that we do not have a picture of his setup in the situation that presents itself when he is driving the dang car.

SSST

I know that when my X73's came they were fully extended and there was no more upward travel on the shocks. Same with the stock suspension when it cam off.

I can see where lowering springs on stock shocks and perches could create an unseating problem in extreme circumstances, but this shouldn't happen on match sets.

powdrhound

What your seeing on your stock suspension is correct. Your stock suspension shocks combined with very soft springs (around 180 lbs./inch I believe) have a lot more travel than a stiffly sprung track oriented suspension. As a result your sway bar does provide much more "help" keeping the other side from fully extending. Lot of guys run adjustable front bars set to full soft and in that case the sway bar provides even less assistance than yours. My JRZ suspension only has about 2.5 to 3 inches of extension when the car is jacked up. Without helpers I would have a two inch gap above or below the spring depending on whether the spring would come off the lower perch or the upper as there is not much friction between the perch and the spring. You must realize that with 600 lb./inch springs on the front (which the OP is running) you will only get a little over 1 inch of spring compression from the static weight of the car acting on the spring. Thus, anytime the suspension would extend more then 1 inch (from when statically loaded) you will start to have the spring come off its lower perch. Combine that with some G loadings and vibration and there is no guarantee the the spring will stay perfectly vertical and reseat itself correctly on the lower perch. It could very easily get crossed up once the suspension compresses. Thus, as you correctly pointed out, there is a TUV requirement for helper springs to keep the mains firmly seated in their perches. The stock GT2/3 coils as a bit of an exception to this as they do not have helpers but they utilize a longer and larger diameter progressive softer spring with a longer compression stroke. Those springs stay firmly seated when the car is jacked up. Have you ever seen a picture of Mikelly, who's a member here, launching his car on street tires? Both of his front wheels are fully off of the ground so it obviously can happen.

powdrhound

Have you never seen a picture of a car at high speed cresting a hill with the car completely unloaded and daylight between the tires? If you put the OPs car in that situation (I know it takes a little imagination) then all of the springs could be unseated since the suspension is at full extension (just as it would be on jackstands). Click on the link below if the attached images are not enough:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/future-c...he-nurburgring

wross996tt

and you have pictures of what the springs look like on those cars?

powdrhound

Not sure what that has to do with anything. I'm assuming you are implying that all those cars may have the springs dangling in the perches? In that case you win. It's hard to argue with someone who sees that set up as safe and acceptable set up. The TUV certification group must have it all wrong I guess. I was just showing an example of a car in motion with the suspension fully extended since it was implied earlier that it cant happen due to swaybars, etc. Over and out.....

wross996tt

You've said this multiple times, but you still reply??? We've all seen the pictures you feel compelled to paste. What we don't know is what was actually going on with the pictures posted by the OP....nor do we actually KNOW what happens as a car unweights at speed. We have conjecture and theory.