Y65MPH

Thanks for backing up my argument Simon. It takes a modified 996tt X50 to beat a 997TT. Now do a flash and exhaust to your 997tt like you did your 996tt? It will be significantly faster than your 996tt....trust me.

Y65MPH

Darth,

At no point did I say the k16 car is quicker than the k24 car. It is not. Smart money would buy a k16 car and spend a few bucks and do an 18g conversion or one of Kevins packages.

I suggest you drive both and see for yourself. You are welcome to drive mine.

Craig

SimonK

You missunderstood. No it doesn't mean that at all. Xp50 is on par with 997tt. There is 10bhp per ton difference and slight power delivery difference. But no night and day! As far as the modifications; stock 996tt is at 0.7 bar boost pressure. Xp50 is at 0.9 bar. 997tt is just under 1 bar. And flashes without further extensive work go to 1.3 bar peak. Do you see the patern? It is all about boost. But once both cars are at 1.3 bar the only slight difference is the turbos which varies power delivery. Variable turbos readjust the blades for earlier kick in. Top end is comparable to k24's. So, once at this level 1.3 bar is 1.3 bar. Given the difference in weight we are back to 10bhp advantage which in real world equals to sod all! I hope you get it now. Maximum tune on a 997 is no bigger than maximum tune on 996. They have same engines and are therefore same platforms. Check some tuner's data. And every tuner will tell you if your plan is to tune pick 996tt.

Kevin

Craig has given some very good advice. Guys reread his statements. They are very true. Here is a few observations that I have tested, driven and observed stock turbocharged cars. I will include stock turbocharged, TUNED ECU cars..

1) If one was to compare all stock cars from the factory the 997TT will be more driveable and produce more useable power under the curve. From stop light to stop light, the 997TT offers more torque almost instantly.

2) The K16 996TT slides into the second spot. It can quickly BEAT a stock 997TT in stop light to stop light and runs when you TUNE the ECU and install a exhaust. One can look at the recent thread that was posted showing the 1/2 mile event in Puerto Rico. And yes it will outrun a STOCK X50..

3) The stock turbocharged TUNED 997TT destroys the K16 tuned, the X50, and X50 tuned car. The early torque that is generated is amazing. This is done thru the 50 degrees of variable camshaft timing seeking maximum torque and the larger compressor wheels (more output than the X50 K24) generating more boost sooner than any of the cars.

4) A tuned X50 with a free flowing exhaust can turn 11.3 @ 130mph (GT2) However, for a driver that has driven all of the cars, one has to wait for the BOOST to deliver the "push" that is present earlier in the 997TT and K16 cars. The PEAK power is greater in the X50 vs a 996TT K16 but LESS than a 997TT. The 997TT has MORE power under the curve..

5) One thing that can tip the CURVE and outcome is ambient temps and High Octane race gas. Again these are my observations, one has to DRIVE all of the cars to PICK there driving style. I think that the WORST daily STREET driver is a X50 tiptronic equipted car. I'm not ******* the car, I'm just stating that I would pick a different car for a daily driver in traffic.

darth g-f

Do you mean a stock 996tt will outrun a stock x50, or that a tuned (I'm guessing you mean reflashed) 996TT with exhaust will outrun a X50??

:?

darth g-f

Not suggesting you said this. It's just that I read it here and on 6sp and also Kevin kinda suggests that red light to red light the K16 is quicker. Again, I have no clue and I'm trying to find dyno graphs to make up my mind.

I would gladly drive both cars back to back to make up my mind. But I live in a city where TT are a rare sight. So finding two to drive back to back is impossible for me.

I am considering the X50 because it has more power out of the box and the only mod I plan on doing is a reflash (in a year or two when I feel stock no longer cuts it) and maybe an exhaust further down the line. I really want a stock(ish) car this time around. I have no intentions in changing turbos or headers or IC or anything else. I've modded cars for two long and really want OEM reliability.

That's part of the reason I'm looking for a TT, I want fast right out of the box. I'm just trying to make as an educated choice as possible.

SimonK

This Saturday our "race gang" went to zeltweg red bull race track in Austria. We did some 100-200km/h runs on our way there. 997tt flashed with exhaust did it in 8.2 secs. My car with same type mods did it in 7.4. One thing is theory the other is real world numbers. My friend with 997tt always says I have the faster car. And on race track due to 997tt understeer there really is no contest. My friend always complains about straight on plowing. We put our cars on the scales and my turbo came in at 1547kg , the 997tt came in at a whopping 1649kg. Both cars same amount of petrol - no driver. There is your answer. Regardless of a car feel (low end torque or whatever) once on boost all this turbo holes do not really matter anymore. Of course the quality of the tune I guess plays a major part. I love both cars, but in reality again I think any difference is academic and on paper. And we are talking split seconds between all of them and not 4 or 5 seconds faster, right? So does it really matter? No. Well at least not to me. But again to the OP, trust me there is sod all in it. And if from zero to top speed, 997tt stock car gains more than 10 car lengths on x50 - drinks are on me! And another thing, I would never bet the result would not be reversed and x50 might beat the 997tt.

Kevin

Darth I wrote the following which was in reference to a TUNED 996TT with K16's..

2) The K16 996TT slides into the second spot. It can quickly BEAT a stock 997TT in stop light to stop light and runs when you TUNE the ECU and install a exhaust.

This is a recent posting that can shed some light on what all the cars can do. Look at the 997TT, 996TT and 996GT2.

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turb...-cars-too.html

http://www.sneakyclub.com/2do-evento...la/resultados/

Darth you mentioned your SC Lotus. The SC will give you a linear power delivery. How much boost did you run on pump gas? I strongly suggest that you fly into the CITY to drive the car that you are thinking about getting. One of the most frequent request that I get from new X50 owners is "how can I remove the lag" My reply is that we can reduce the lag, but you can't remove it!

If you are bench racing and looking at the PEAK numbers you won't get the true picture. Which includes comparing it to the 997TT.

Kevin

Yes, Simon getting the proper tune can make it or break the results. Race gas can also swing the results.

SimonK

I called my friend with 997tt to check his manual for standing kilometre start. It is 21.50 secs. I checked my turbo s manual (same as x50) the time is 21.80. I think the OP's question is being answered. Stock for stock as I said - sod all in it.

jumper5836

For me it doesn't matter about a car length ahead one way or the other. The 996tt is lighter, has less electronics, it still has the attached feeling and it hauls *** at the track.

SimonK

Never a question in my mind.

Kevin

Some seat time in a 997GT2 or GT2RS might change your mind.. Don't get me wrong the 996 platform is great. The 997 platform has some really good engineering built into to it.

At the end of the day we can do it our own way. It's like the oil thread debates, Air-cooled vs water cooled, Red head or Blonde GF, Ford or Chevy... 993TT vs 996TT now 996TT vs 997TT soon it will be the 997TT vs 998..

darth g-f

Thanks everyone!

All this really helps me make up my mind.

Kevin, my SC Elise made 300hp and about 190ft.lbs. It never felt fast even though it could do 0-60 in 4sec (or less). Because what you "feel" really is the torque, or to be exact, the variation of torque, or rising of torque. With the SC, the torque on the Elise was flat from 3000rpm to cut off. Really easy to drive awesome and really controllable at the track. BUT, it never felt that fast.

On the other hand, I also had a 260hp and 230ft.lbs turbo Miata. It felt really fast because of the torque rising rapidly between 3000-4500rpm. It was slower by a good margin than the Elise but definately felt faster.

I feel I'm gonna like the X50 because the lag makes the rise in torque even greater and in a shorter amount of time (maybe). Anyhow, I will undoubtly go to you for a reflash and exhaust (if you sell those). This will be an awesome car to drive!

Lance 4c

Kevin,
So, what gain can one expect with a tuned k16 with your turbos suppied to me, with exhaust? In better words, if I add exhaust to the equation, is it worth it?