Oil
07-10-2011, 03:55 PM
#151
Race Director
Ok - the amount of misinformation you are spreading is actually getting dangerous.
1 - Just picked up my jug of TDT. Says right on it - "For gasoline engines. Meets API SM, SL/SJ industry standards." So your first conjecture above is completely false.
2 - No, TDT is not "approved" for VW diesels. However, the majority of the folks I know w PD TDIs are now running it or its equivalent because the VW APPROVED 505.01 (in its 5W-30 form) has proven to be insufficient in protecting the flat tappets from wear. Countless UOA on Fred's TDI forum has supported this. So, here we have a non APPROVED oil actually working better than an APPROVED oil from the manufacturer. Go figure. And yes, I am also now running TDT in my PD TDI.
3 - Your attack on bluelugunas method for countering the tank the way he does was also false. He said he counters the torque on the tank by using two wrenches in one hand and squeezing. If you knew anything about physics, you would know not only is this a good way to counter, it is a perfect way to do so. Since he is using one hand, any force applied by his fingers on on wrench will be equal and opposite the force applied by the other wrench in his palm. Net torque on the tank will be exactly zero. So at the very least you owe him an apology.
4 - You have said elsewhere that Delvac 1 ESP is 10-20% "mineral oil." Right on the container it says "fully synthetic." So does TDT. I dont know where you are getting your information on this from, but given some of the doozies you've posted above I think I will trust Mobil's claims over yours.
Seriously, people come here for good advice on how to take care of their cars. That the misinformation you are posting makes you look foolish I do not care about. That someone else could base their decisons on this rubbish I do care about.
1 - Just picked up my jug of TDT. Says right on it - "For gasoline engines. Meets API SM, SL/SJ industry standards." So your first conjecture above is completely false.
2 - No, TDT is not "approved" for VW diesels. However, the majority of the folks I know w PD TDIs are now running it or its equivalent because the VW APPROVED 505.01 (in its 5W-30 form) has proven to be insufficient in protecting the flat tappets from wear. Countless UOA on Fred's TDI forum has supported this. So, here we have a non APPROVED oil actually working better than an APPROVED oil from the manufacturer. Go figure. And yes, I am also now running TDT in my PD TDI.
3 - Your attack on bluelugunas method for countering the tank the way he does was also false. He said he counters the torque on the tank by using two wrenches in one hand and squeezing. If you knew anything about physics, you would know not only is this a good way to counter, it is a perfect way to do so. Since he is using one hand, any force applied by his fingers on on wrench will be equal and opposite the force applied by the other wrench in his palm. Net torque on the tank will be exactly zero. So at the very least you owe him an apology.
4 - You have said elsewhere that Delvac 1 ESP is 10-20% "mineral oil." Right on the container it says "fully synthetic." So does TDT. I dont know where you are getting your information on this from, but given some of the doozies you've posted above I think I will trust Mobil's claims over yours.
Seriously, people come here for good advice on how to take care of their cars. That the misinformation you are posting makes you look foolish I do not care about. That someone else could base their decisons on this rubbish I do care about.
But as I mentioned in another post that apparently Porsche does not go by that for it only approves some oils with similar SAE/API classifications. Porsche in its approved oils list does not blanket approve oils on their SAE/API classification.
If you do not believe Porsche has a vested interest in seeing better oils oils that have something going for them over, above and beyond just some meaningless SAE/API numbers printed on a jug...
As for the 'fully synthetic' claim my info is that it is permissible for a USA oil maker to label his oil 'sythetic' even if it is not. I thus do not trust that label. What I do trust (when I can find them and this is getting harder) is the material safetly data sheet (MSDS) and the list of ingredients listed.
I have not kept up on what goes on the TDI forum since I sold my TDI back in 2006. It would not surprise me that modern mythology has taken over there too regarding oil.
Back when I participated in that forum the fav trick at the time was to when changing the engine's fuel filter to dump a bottle of diesel fuel system cleaner (I forget the brand name) in the housing so upon engine start the cleaner would come out in full strength and clean/remove deposits from a fuel system that experiences thousands of pounds of pressure from an already pretty good fuel system cleaner, diesel fuel. (We used to use diesel oil to remove cosmoline from heavy machinery treated with the same for protection from the elements during sea shipping.)
Besides, I noted once in tipping a bottle of the vaunted fuel system cleaner and for some reason stopped short of tipping the bottle up all the way and instead peered inside I spotted a small marble sized globule of water and god only knows what else at the bottom of the bottle. Bad enough to dump that in the fuel tank. I would hate to think what it would done to the engine's high pressure fuel pump had this been dumped in the fuel filter housing on the *clean* side during a fuel filter change.
So, my opinion is that I would not as a TDI owner, let alone an owner of non-diesel Porsche, rely upon what some TDI owners say is best for their cars and follow suit with my TDI or Porsche.
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-10-2011, 04:07 PM
#152
Race Director
I assume everyone agrees that ZDDP is a good additive. It is "consumed" over time protecting the engine, thus you see zinc levels diminish with miles on the oil (see the oil test results posted earlier). It includes phosphorous as well.
EPA doesn't like zinc, sulfur or phosphorous in motor oils. The following quote is from this EPA document: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/hd2007/420r02016.pdf
"Engine oil components can affect emission control technologies in a number of ways. Sulfur in engine oil can contribute to catalyst poisoning in a manner similar to sulfur in diesel fuel. Therefore, it is desirable for engine oils to have low sulfur concentrations. Various metals in engine oils, including phosphorous and zinc, can also poison catalyst function over the long term. Therefore, it is desirable to reduce the metal content of engine oils."
So understanding the requirements helps me understand the results.
If EPA wants Porsche to reduce zinc/sulfur/phosphorous in order to ensure that their catalytic convertors last 100,000 miles then that's a requirement for the oil. Engine wear avoidance doesn't trump EPA because EPA fines Porsche for noncompliance.
Oil weight is a "don't ask/don't tell" issue as far as I'm concerned. Do as you will, weigh the risks, you bear the consequences (especially if you expect a warranty to cover you
).
EPA doesn't like zinc, sulfur or phosphorous in motor oils. The following quote is from this EPA document: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/hd2007/420r02016.pdf
"Engine oil components can affect emission control technologies in a number of ways. Sulfur in engine oil can contribute to catalyst poisoning in a manner similar to sulfur in diesel fuel. Therefore, it is desirable for engine oils to have low sulfur concentrations. Various metals in engine oils, including phosphorous and zinc, can also poison catalyst function over the long term. Therefore, it is desirable to reduce the metal content of engine oils."
So understanding the requirements helps me understand the results.
If EPA wants Porsche to reduce zinc/sulfur/phosphorous in order to ensure that their catalytic convertors last 100,000 miles then that's a requirement for the oil. Engine wear avoidance doesn't trump EPA because EPA fines Porsche for noncompliance.
Oil weight is a "don't ask/don't tell" issue as far as I'm concerned. Do as you will, weigh the risks, you bear the consequences (especially if you expect a warranty to cover you
).If the removal of these engine anti-wear additives would result in accelerated and premature engine wear, that the converters were still functioning but the engine was a gross polluter due to engine wear well, Porsche cars would be in non-compliance.
In fact all car makers would lose since all have gone over to oils that have a reduced amount of zinc and other harmful engine wear additives and one assumes therefore all engines would suffer from accelerated wear.
Or are we to assume that it is only Porsche of all the automakers that can't or won't make an engine that can survive without this miracle zinc addtive?
Sincerely,
Macster.
07-10-2011, 04:28 PM
#153
Race Director
Mac, you failed to answer my DIRECT question what you do for a living and what your level of expertise is with respect to these engines.
As far as your take on oil......To try and make the leap that b/c PAG added an oil to the approved list makes it the only suitable (and best) for your car is absurdity. You really need to understand how those lists get complied. And further, you really needed to understand something called empirical evolution.
And don't try to make the comparison between our street cars and the race cars. The do NOT use the same oil we use and their motors are not even close to the same as ours so that line of comparison is moot.
I'm on to your game. You don't choose brevity in your replies b/c you don't have a knowledge base that would allow you to explain to the layperson. That ability is what separates the experts from the posers. Instead, you pull some sort of jedi mind trick through the use of your lengthy google searches which usually works on the uninformed.
Why myself (and others) continue to dialogue with you baffles my mind. With that said, it's time to do what only I can do to protect myself from trying to help you any further............
As far as your take on oil......To try and make the leap that b/c PAG added an oil to the approved list makes it the only suitable (and best) for your car is absurdity. You really need to understand how those lists get complied. And further, you really needed to understand something called empirical evolution.
And don't try to make the comparison between our street cars and the race cars. The do NOT use the same oil we use and their motors are not even close to the same as ours so that line of comparison is moot.
I'm on to your game. You don't choose brevity in your replies b/c you don't have a knowledge base that would allow you to explain to the layperson. That ability is what separates the experts from the posers. Instead, you pull some sort of jedi mind trick through the use of your lengthy google searches which usually works on the uninformed.
Why myself (and others) continue to dialogue with you baffles my mind. With that said, it's time to do what only I can do to protect myself from trying to help you any further............
I make no claim to be a chemist, nor anything I'm not. I am a firmware engineer that current writes firmware for vehicle test equipment. I have been involved in firmware and software engineering since the early 80's. Prior to that time I was a journeyman machinist, having gone through a state (CA) sponsered 4 year (of on the job training and night time class room instruction) apprenticeship program in partnership with the industry and the CA college system.
Before that I was an optical technician involved in the manufacturer of eyeglasses.
Before that I worked at a variety of job including working as an industrial welder.
My engine background was spending around 10 years working with and along side several professional mechanics and others skilled in automotive and aircraft and stationary engine rebuilding. (And were even skilled in steam engines too.)
I have been involved in the rebuilding of maybe 10 or 12 engines from 2-stroke motorcycle engine, H-D motorcycle engine, to various USA V8's, and one Datsun 510 4-cylinder engine.
I have never been inside a Porsche engine.
But I don't claim to know how to rebuild a Porsche engine.
Nor have I claimed to have any inside oil industry knowledge.
All I have to go on is info that -- most of which I have shared (only to be scolded for the length of my posts) -- that is available to almost anyone that wants to find it to back up my claim my belief that this movement towards diesel engine oils for modern Porsche gas engines is based on not good oil construction (cause the MSDS with its ingredients list put that to rest) nor on anything remotely scientific.
That to believe the oils Porsche recommends are all inferior and that it overlooked and continues to overlook a superior oil (not a descriptive phrase I would use) for God only knows what reason requires suspension of critical and scientific thought and exhibits a distrust of Porsche and its company integrity and expertise that is beyond my ability to comprehend.
Sincerely,
Macster.
