Kevinmacd

There was a previous post earlier, of which a teardown was done because of the IMS/Chain noise. After the tear down it was quiet for a short period of time, then the noise returned. So based on this, I think it is inherint that these engines make chain and IMS noises and is considered nomal. So I would not think the chain/IMS noise is an issue, and only sparks conversation since most of us are used to quiet engines. If the noise dissappears around 1500rpm, it has been discussed by many on this board and by Porsche techs in dealers and non dealer facilities that there is no need for alarm.

The alarm in this case is due to failing leakdown tests, and noises other then the IMS/chain,

Dock

Excellent question.

TT Surgeon

Sounds like a lifter to me, the IMS fails that I have heard are more erratic/marbles sound.

Kevin

How many of you folks know the mechanics as to "how a engine fails a leakdown test"?

When you MISS a downshift or overRev this engine, you can get valve float at high boost levels. If you have a tune at 1.4 bars or greater and a REV limit set close to 7400 RPM's the valve springs on this engine can not keep the valves seated. The piston or pistons will usually make contact with the exhaust valves.

This valve train stress does put wear on the IMS and chains along with the vario cam, and intake lifters.

I would guess that this engine has multiple intake lifter failures. It does have BENT valves and maybe a FEW cracked rings. This engine is not at 100% Should the owner continue to drive the car? The car is tracked. If one places a car into track duty, then more stress is placed on the engine. The next question is: How far does one bury there head in the sand, and wish that the engine just stays together. Running a engine with bent exhaust valves will eventually leed to a broken exhaust valve wedged in a piston.

Haulinkraut has a great point. Your exposure is $20K and more if you lose your engine. So you can accept that FACT and drive the car like you stole it, until the time comes up when you need to address the issue. The next question is> how long will the engine run. In many cases the engine will start to throw multiple CEL. You will get misfire and camshaft deviation errors. OR the engine just stops and coast to a stop.

I have seen the emails and know the engine condition. The owner does not have the monies to fix the engine but he want to go racing. The exposure is a "used" engine at "X" price. Please realize that many of the used engine out there DO have issues. One has to do due diligence with finding a good engine. With leakdown numbers and a oil sample.

Which brings up the point that I have been making on multiple threads. We can gauge the health of these engine with oil samples and leakdown tests.

Dock

Is the engine in question here in this thread modified to the levels you mention above? Has the engine been exposed to missed downshifts and/or over revs? Has this engine seen extensive track time?

puma

yes it does run a lot of boost on water/meth, no clue about the rev limiter and the missed downshift as we just got the car. It wasn't seeing track time but it was a daily driver (That's what we were told).

It now has one track day and looking for more, this is why this car was bought with lowering the boost in mind.

Dock

Thanks for the information.

Kevin

I have seen similar engine "tuner specs" 1.4 bars and greater. So now we have to fill in the blanks.

High boost, water/meth injection to provide BETTER octane to run HIGHER timing in the MAP loaded in the ECU, to run more power.

And now we have a engine with high leakdown numbers >> is it the valvetrain compromised (bent valves) or is it from the effect of running high boost to make more power with a fueling system that is in place to provide more octane because the pump gas does not have the octane to run more than 1.4 bars.

Kevin

Dock did you view the video? Did you not see the aux coolant lines run into the bottom coolant drain plugs? Did you realize that the only TURBO system that runs that setup requires H2O cooling for the bearing housings??

Dock

I watched the first video, but I wasn't looking for modifications. I was more interested in listening, while keeping in mind the general area of the microphone. Besides, I don't think the litmus test is one of all viewers being able to watch the videos and then accurately answer questions pertaining to all the engine modifications, maximum boost level attainable, and rev limiter setting.

I believe that knowing all the modifications and the boost/power levels, as well as how the car has been used, is important for those viewing this thread, so I asked. Haulinkraut is right, there is a degree of hypochondria on this forum, and I'm sure that there are those who have watched, or those that will watch the videos in the future, that might think this is a stock engine. This can lead to..."Oh no, am I next?". I would additionally opine that changing the oil in this car even every 1000 miles (or less) would not have prevented the damage. You have told me in the past that water/meth and high boost levels can be very risky on these engines.

haulinkraut

I didn't mean to hijack this thread from the OP.
I just know that the engine issues that some of these cars encounter are discussed in generalities and are not very clear as to the causes or the weak links. And in the effort of keeping everyone in the loop I just thought we could lay all the cards on the table with the noises this engine makes and the risks of said noises. And also to discuss actual failure areas and their causes as well. What I want to see cleared up about this engine is:

Variocam
Are variocam lifters failing due quality issues or are these engines seeing unusual use or stress to cause it like overrevs, incorrect oil, incorrect oil change intervals etc? How common is the issue? Solution?

Engine rattle
Is the noise that 95% of these engines have normal? Is it safe? What could be expected with running the engine with this issue un-resolved? Is the damage worth the cost of tearing an engine apart to chase it? At what point should the issues be something to worry about? How do you determine the difference between a normal chain noise and an IMS issue? Solution?

IMS Failures
What are the issues with the shaft that causes the noise(as in gear lash or loose/worn woodruff key for IMS gear)? What causes these issues(overrevs or quality issue with part)? How to identify this issue? What are the long term risks of running an engine with these issues? Is it worth chasing this noise or issue if your car is not making metal or needing a tear down for other issues? Solution?

It just seems hopeless and discouraging to think that any engine may be failing early regardless of treatment or mod levels. I can't buy that these engines are just falling apart without outside influences such as use, wear and maintenance either. And I know other people feel the same way and want answers.

R5 Turbo 2

My car sounds just like that......it has 315,000 miles and runs like the day I bought it.

Drive it like you stole it.

Dock

haulinkraut - Great questions.

gradyex

These are the posts that I like hearing. Folks that have this noise early on that have racked up the miles just the same. If you have over 100k miles and have had this noise since day 1 please post it. Have you done anything special for it? Example: change the oil more often, check the oil filter for metal flakes, switch to a thicker oil? etc. Did the noise get worse over time? I have a 2007 997 TT with the same issue with almost 30k miles on the engine. I noticed the rattle after the first year of ownership (around 12k miles). I change my own oil (switched to a thicker oil Mobil 1 5w-40 TDT) + filter every 4-5k miles. My engine hardly burns any oil and runs strong. I have no obvious metal flakes on my oil filter. The noise seems to dissapate after 2k RPM's.

John D II

I had the IMS noise since almost day one to 106,000 miles, when one day it got worse. It would be louder on some days than others, but always seemed acceptable based on my history. Then one morning it got much louder and it just seemed something was not right. I drove it 2-3 days like this, then decided to bring it in. My tech said "don't drive it - we should look and we'll find it". They tried chain tensioners just to see and that did not fix it. I told him OK, find it. They tore the motor apart and found the woodruf keys on the IMS worn and the gear on the end of the IMS flopping around. Had I continued to drive, I would have caused additional engine damage very shortly. As it was, the engine was in remarkably good shape and the parts required to rebuild were much less than letting it explode before fixing it. The repair was 1/2 the cost of a new motor...maybe about the same as a great deal on a used motor. We rebuilt with all new bearings, seals, tensioners, chains, sprokets and new IMS. The car is very quiet now with a hint of IMS noise. It had zero IMS noise for the first 2-3 weeks. They told me it would come back and that is normal...as long as it is not unusually loud.