Garrett Turbos vs Hybrid turbos
11-24-2007, 11:55 PM
#16
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Tom with your Revo programming now you are at 1.2bar.. Swapping turbochargers and adding a electronic boost controller set at 1.2bar is just a tit for tat tradeoff.. Infact you will reach you 1.2bar later vs sooner. Setting the boost controller higher will net you more power, but you will quickly run out of fuel.
DMaffo has a stripped car with a gutted interior.
DMaffo has a stripped car with a gutted interior.
Are you saying that the same engine with a stock K-24 turbo at 1.2 bar vs the same one at the same boost with a modified turbo would be at the same hp and TQ?? I am set on not running a higher boost so do I understand you to mean I will stay at tit for tat??
Last edited by tkerrmd; 12-01-2007 at 11:55 PM.
11-25-2007, 12:04 AM
#17
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Tom,
Personally, I think you would be very pleased with the above. However, if I were doing it, I would port the stock headers while you are at it and add an intake plenum such as the FVD or EVO unit.
As for road track settings...Todd will know what is safe - he has many customers that track their cars.
What you are describing is the 600 HP package. Air intakes, plenums, ported headers and a larger throttle body all enhance the 600 number. When I was going to do this level - I was told about 650 HP with all the goodies I just mentioned above, race gas and 1.35 bar boost...
I usually run just under 1.2 bar and have plenty of power. My typical boost setting on 93 octane is 1.16 - 1.19 and I am very happy with the power provided at under 1.2 bar. The Protomotive K24/18 turbos you don't seem to require as much boost to produce some serious power.
And I would not get too hung up on the power figures, dynos figures and hypothetical scenarios. Know that these Proto K24/18G turbos make a very fast car. Period.
In support of this, I will offer the following: Last year nobody could beat Bills base Proto 600 in NY (just turbos, Greddy, ECU tune and exhaust) - he went up against several different stage 4 cars from various tuners on friendly highway pulls and the last I heard nobody ever beat him, including my previous K16/24 car that ran 11.5 @ 127mph in the 1/4 mile. Another story to give you an idea of the potential of a base P600 - Last winter I did the Proto 700 install in New England and we used a generic program to get it down to Protosport in NJ for fine tuning because I used the V-Flow with proto MAF and not the Proto pipes, which have an established program ready to go. I felt the car was very fast and was quite happy with the power. When I test drove the car with John at protosport, he said "something is wrong, I have K24/18G cars without the fuel that pull stronger than this". I thought to myself "thats odd - I thought this was pretty good, certainly faster than a base proto car". John was right and when he was done with the car it really ran well, but what I am trying to say is the base Proto car is a force to be reckoned with...maybe not the fastest car on the planet, but I don't think you will ever be embarrased and it has proven to be faster than your typical stage 4 car.
Personally, I think you would be very pleased with the above. However, if I were doing it, I would port the stock headers while you are at it and add an intake plenum such as the FVD or EVO unit.
As for road track settings...Todd will know what is safe - he has many customers that track their cars.
What you are describing is the 600 HP package. Air intakes, plenums, ported headers and a larger throttle body all enhance the 600 number. When I was going to do this level - I was told about 650 HP with all the goodies I just mentioned above, race gas and 1.35 bar boost...
I usually run just under 1.2 bar and have plenty of power. My typical boost setting on 93 octane is 1.16 - 1.19 and I am very happy with the power provided at under 1.2 bar. The Protomotive K24/18 turbos you don't seem to require as much boost to produce some serious power.
And I would not get too hung up on the power figures, dynos figures and hypothetical scenarios. Know that these Proto K24/18G turbos make a very fast car. Period.
In support of this, I will offer the following: Last year nobody could beat Bills base Proto 600 in NY (just turbos, Greddy, ECU tune and exhaust) - he went up against several different stage 4 cars from various tuners on friendly highway pulls and the last I heard nobody ever beat him, including my previous K16/24 car that ran 11.5 @ 127mph in the 1/4 mile. Another story to give you an idea of the potential of a base P600 - Last winter I did the Proto 700 install in New England and we used a generic program to get it down to Protosport in NJ for fine tuning because I used the V-Flow with proto MAF and not the Proto pipes, which have an established program ready to go. I felt the car was very fast and was quite happy with the power. When I test drove the car with John at protosport, he said "something is wrong, I have K24/18G cars without the fuel that pull stronger than this". I thought to myself "thats odd - I thought this was pretty good, certainly faster than a base proto car". John was right and when he was done with the car it really ran well, but what I am trying to say is the base Proto car is a force to be reckoned with...maybe not the fastest car on the planet, but I don't think you will ever be embarrased and it has proven to be faster than your typical stage 4 car.
Craig, JB thanks for the input!!!
tom
11-25-2007, 12:11 AM
#18
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Tom, you already have K24 turbine wheels.. You are not changing the intake system, you already are running straight pipes. Your REVO programming is already giving you 1.2bars of boost. The 18G if used with a EBC will deliver the same amount of HP. The higher numbers given with the 18G are when guys are running it at higher boost levels. I also believe that the Motronic control of boost will give you more torque sooner in the RPM curve vs boost delivered static at 1.2bar across the board.
11-25-2007, 12:18 AM
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DMaffo has a stripped car with a gutted interior.
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DMaffo has a stripped car with a gutted interior.
IMHO, DMaffo's time is attributed to his strong Protomotive package, coupled with some very skilled (or lucky) shifting. I don't think removing his passenger seat got him the 10.8 - DMaffo should be congratulated for a job well done! Many have tried and few have even come close to this with a 600 HP car.
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11-25-2007, 12:56 AM
#20
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Tom, you already have K24 turbine wheels.. You are not changing the intake system, you already are running straight pipes. Your REVO programming is already giving you 1.2bars of boost. The 18G if used with a EBC will deliver the same amount of HP. The higher numbers given with the 18G are when guys are running it at higher boost levels. I also believe that the Motronic control of boost will give you more torque sooner in the RPM curve vs boost delivered static at 1.2bar across the board.
11-25-2007, 12:58 AM
#21
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Just for the record - I spoke to DMaffo about his run just after he did it. He told me he removed about 110 lbs of weight and personally weighs about 235. He was also running 19" heavier wheels and tires, which makes this an even more incredible achievement. Boost was 1.3 bar on race fuel.
IMHO, DMaffo's time is attributed to his strong Protomotive package, coupled with some very skilled (or lucky) shifting. I don't think removing his passenger seat got him the 10.8 - DMaffo should be congratulated for a job well done! Many have tried and few have even come close to this with a 600 HP car.
IMHO, DMaffo's time is attributed to his strong Protomotive package, coupled with some very skilled (or lucky) shifting. I don't think removing his passenger seat got him the 10.8 - DMaffo should be congratulated for a job well done! Many have tried and few have even come close to this with a 600 HP car.
11-25-2007, 03:44 AM
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Does anyone have any packages that they have regularly open tracked. Drag racing is fine and dandy but the demands of 45 minute sessions are very different from those experienced in a 10 or 11 second pass. Drag racing being the less severe of the 2 (IMHO)
Power shifting our trannies as a regular activity is a quick route to a new trannie. Even when done well its abusive and fatigue will have its way with you eventually.
Power shifting our trannies as a regular activity is a quick route to a new trannie. Even when done well its abusive and fatigue will have its way with you eventually.
11-25-2007, 03:56 PM
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IMHO, DMaffo's time is attributed to his strong Protomotive package, coupled with some very skilled (or lucky) shifting. I don't think removing his passenger seat got him the 10.8 - DMaffo should be congratulated for a job well done! Many have tried and few have even come close to this with a 600 HP car.
If it is full weight then it makes power in the 580-600 rwhp range and is not indicative of a 600 crank hp kit.
11-25-2007, 05:05 PM
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Joe,
It's possible he has stripped the car and is not admitting it - we will never know for sure. Personally, I believe him. The week before he was running 11's and asked me for advice on shift points, etc. with the intention of going back and trying again. Not that he couldn't strip the car in a week, I just don't think he did and then didn't admit it.
The reason I think it is possible is that Bobby has run a 10.3 at 139 on the Protomotive 700 package utilizing speed shifting. It has netted him about 5-6 mph over most P700 trap speeds and 3mph over Scott's exceptional run, so it seems to me that the speed shifting does add to trap speed and certainly to ET.
Also, based on information I have been told by Todd K in respect to what to expect with his kits...Todd told me he has seen up to 132 trap with his base 600 kit. So if you remove 100 Lbs. and run in 40 degree temps like DMaffo - is 1 more MPH possible? It's not that far out of the norm for what protomotive has seen before.
It's possible he has stripped the car and is not admitting it - we will never know for sure. Personally, I believe him. The week before he was running 11's and asked me for advice on shift points, etc. with the intention of going back and trying again. Not that he couldn't strip the car in a week, I just don't think he did and then didn't admit it.
The reason I think it is possible is that Bobby has run a 10.3 at 139 on the Protomotive 700 package utilizing speed shifting. It has netted him about 5-6 mph over most P700 trap speeds and 3mph over Scott's exceptional run, so it seems to me that the speed shifting does add to trap speed and certainly to ET.
Also, based on information I have been told by Todd K in respect to what to expect with his kits...Todd told me he has seen up to 132 trap with his base 600 kit. So if you remove 100 Lbs. and run in 40 degree temps like DMaffo - is 1 more MPH possible? It's not that far out of the norm for what protomotive has seen before.
11-25-2007, 05:37 PM
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Tom,
Nice to see that you are still enjoying the yellow beast.
The guys racing the Ring and the Autobahn tend to keep the power level with stock internals at around 540hp for the 996 GT2.
This results in 10.7s for 0-124mph.
It is with passenger, 3/4 of fuel, without speed shifting, without lower tire pressure.
So it seems comparable to the 11s 0-132mph run of John D II.
Nice to see that you are still enjoying the yellow beast.
The guys racing the Ring and the Autobahn tend to keep the power level with stock internals at around 540hp for the 996 GT2.
This results in 10.7s for 0-124mph.
It is with passenger, 3/4 of fuel, without speed shifting, without lower tire pressure.
So it seems comparable to the 11s 0-132mph run of John D II.
11-25-2007, 06:17 PM
#26
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Tom,
Nice to see that you are still enjoying the yellow beast.
The guys racing the Ring and the Autobahn tend to keep the power level with stock internals at around 540hp for the 996 GT2.
This results in 10.7s for 0-124mph.
It is with passenger, 3/4 of fuel, without speed shifting, without lower tire pressure.
So it seems comparable to the 11s 0-132mph run of John D II.
Nice to see that you are still enjoying the yellow beast.
The guys racing the Ring and the Autobahn tend to keep the power level with stock internals at around 540hp for the 996 GT2.
This results in 10.7s for 0-124mph.
It is with passenger, 3/4 of fuel, without speed shifting, without lower tire pressure.
So it seems comparable to the 11s 0-132mph run of John D II.
my car is set up for the track at race car setting and hoosiers and big brakes.
So I hate to fall back on the crank up the good old hp trick but what the heck.
this is exactly why I steered clear of the 996GT3 I would have been so mod limited I would have had to sell the car.
I love the TT and will continue to campaign it.
Also with the new factory data revealing now what they are comfortable pushing my engine too I feel safe going to a higher hp.
of course we will see how the engine holds up! Like to get two track years out of it and then rebuild bigger and better.
planning on coming over there for a drive in the near future!!!!
tom
11-25-2007, 06:28 PM
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Joe,
It's possible he has stripped the car and is not admitting it - we will never know for sure. Personally, I believe him. The week before he was running 11's and asked me for advice on shift points, etc. with the intention of going back and trying again. Not that he couldn't strip the car in a week, I just don't think he did and then didn't admit it.
The reason I think it is possible is that Bobby has run a 10.3 at 139 on the Protomotive 700 package utilizing speed shifting. It has netted him about 5-6 mph over most P700 trap speeds and 3mph over Scott's exceptional run, so it seems to me that the speed shifting does add to trap speed and certainly to ET.
.
It's possible he has stripped the car and is not admitting it - we will never know for sure. Personally, I believe him. The week before he was running 11's and asked me for advice on shift points, etc. with the intention of going back and trying again. Not that he couldn't strip the car in a week, I just don't think he did and then didn't admit it.
The reason I think it is possible is that Bobby has run a 10.3 at 139 on the Protomotive 700 package utilizing speed shifting. It has netted him about 5-6 mph over most P700 trap speeds and 3mph over Scott's exceptional run, so it seems to me that the speed shifting does add to trap speed and certainly to ET.
.
11-25-2007, 06:48 PM
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Joe,
Yes, I know that - I thought it was 1.7 or so, but I understand your point.
In your opinion, how much weight would he have to remove to trap 134 mph (his highest trap) with a roughly 600HP car?
Yes, I know that - I thought it was 1.7 or so, but I understand your point.
In your opinion, how much weight would he have to remove to trap 134 mph (his highest trap) with a roughly 600HP car?
11-25-2007, 08:15 PM
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The car would have to weigh in at 3200-3250 w/driver or run more boost resulting in more than 600hp.
11-25-2007, 09:30 PM
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John,the reason his 700 ran 10.3 @ 139 is because he was running insane boost levels on that 700 ....like 2.0 bar .....Mark has stated this before on 6 Speed.....i can find it if you like.I wonder what the a/f's looked like on those passes....not to mention the top of the pistons.In my experience speed shifting has very little to do with mph and this is not the reason it ran those times.Joe