Clearing evidence of hard driving
03-09-2002, 12:39 AM
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Clearing evidence of hard driving
Hi guys, I just traded my 1997 Acura NSX in for a 2001 996 turbo with 8,000 miles 4 months ago, and already it's having problems. After one evening of hard (but not abusive) driving it's grinding in 3rd and won't go into reverse at all. I take it in to the dealer and they say it needs a new transmission ($6,500) but they won't cover it under warranty because the car's diagnostic data is showing that the car spent a lot of time in the high RPM ranges recently and also because it has 19" Gemballa wheels. I can't believe it!! I'm wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to clear that specific data from the cars diagnostic info so that when I take it to the other local Porsche dealer in a week they won't try to use this data against me. I'm also thinking of getting the tranny repaired at an independent Porsche place- does anyone know if this is possible, or is it a sealed or non-serviceable transmission? Thanks in advance for the help!!
-Michael
-Michael
03-09-2002, 12:58 AM
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Michael,
First of all, I feel that you were mistreated! That is "not taking care of your customers" and I am shocked at their decision. Where do you live? Near NY? I can hook you up with a "Cool" dealer who can take care of your problem. The other thing is that you may want to just order Gearing and repair at "The Racers Group" They can add performance gears, synchros, and fix your tranny Reverse issue at the same time. They're site is <a href="http://www.theracersgroup.com" target="_blank">THE RACERS GROUP WEBSTE - ASK FOR RYAN</a> and tell him Ryan from New York referred you. For the same price as repairing your tranny, you can probably get them to include a different gear ratio that will simulate 60HP pulling power. They are doing that to my car as well. Good luck, and sorry to hear that you're getting the shaft from a Porsche dealer.
-Ryan Shankar
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
First of all, I feel that you were mistreated! That is "not taking care of your customers" and I am shocked at their decision. Where do you live? Near NY? I can hook you up with a "Cool" dealer who can take care of your problem. The other thing is that you may want to just order Gearing and repair at "The Racers Group" They can add performance gears, synchros, and fix your tranny Reverse issue at the same time. They're site is <a href="http://www.theracersgroup.com" target="_blank">THE RACERS GROUP WEBSTE - ASK FOR RYAN</a> and tell him Ryan from New York referred you. For the same price as repairing your tranny, you can probably get them to include a different gear ratio that will simulate 60HP pulling power. They are doing that to my car as well. Good luck, and sorry to hear that you're getting the shaft from a Porsche dealer.
-Ryan Shankar
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
03-09-2002, 01:01 AM
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Michael, Also, you can call TODD At EVO. He can help you as well. He's capable of building the gearing as well. He is actually providing me with the gearing parts as well - His site is <a href="http://www.evoms.com" target="_blank">EVO WEBSITE HERE</a>
-Ryan
-Ryan
03-09-2002, 02:34 AM
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Ryan,
Thanks for the quick reply! I actually have already spoken to Tood at Evo and am just waiting for them to release their level 4 (600hp) package before I take it out there for installation. The Racers Group is also fairly close (I'm in San Diego) and I would definately rather pay to have have the gears replaced with shorter ratio ones than pay that much money for a stock tranny. I will be sure to give them a call. On a side note, I may have to talk to you about your Supra- I just picked up a stock '98TT 6spd for a project car.
-Michael
Thanks for the quick reply! I actually have already spoken to Tood at Evo and am just waiting for them to release their level 4 (600hp) package before I take it out there for installation. The Racers Group is also fairly close (I'm in San Diego) and I would definately rather pay to have have the gears replaced with shorter ratio ones than pay that much money for a stock tranny. I will be sure to give them a call. On a side note, I may have to talk to you about your Supra- I just picked up a stock '98TT 6spd for a project car.
-Michael
03-09-2002, 11:12 AM
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Michael,
Based on what you said (i.e. no mods in your car and no overrevs) you are not even in the "gray area" where you should depend on dealer's discretion. They HAVE to replace the transmission under warranty, period. Gemballa 19" wheels is not a "mod" that can noticeably overload your transmission. What's next --- "Sir, you have aftermarket aluminum pedals in you car --- that voids the drivetrain AND engive warranty!"
I don't think you should try to hide anything. Try another dealer with a better attitude --- this may be by far the simplest thing to do.
Just curious, when you say it spent alot of time in high rpm range: what do you mean?
Was it mostly driven above 5,500 for the last few thousand miles?
The reason I am asking is that if that's what you do, that thing MAY consistently overheat. You MAY want to consider either a transmission oil cooler (like GT3R) or steel synchros or both. Now THAT would be an "aftermarket mod" giving your dealer good legal grounds for denying warranty
Good luck with all!
Based on what you said (i.e. no mods in your car and no overrevs) you are not even in the "gray area" where you should depend on dealer's discretion. They HAVE to replace the transmission under warranty, period. Gemballa 19" wheels is not a "mod" that can noticeably overload your transmission. What's next --- "Sir, you have aftermarket aluminum pedals in you car --- that voids the drivetrain AND engive warranty!"
I don't think you should try to hide anything. Try another dealer with a better attitude --- this may be by far the simplest thing to do.
Just curious, when you say it spent alot of time in high rpm range: what do you mean?
Was it mostly driven above 5,500 for the last few thousand miles?
The reason I am asking is that if that's what you do, that thing MAY consistently overheat. You MAY want to consider either a transmission oil cooler (like GT3R) or steel synchros or both. Now THAT would be an "aftermarket mod" giving your dealer good legal grounds for denying warranty
Good luck with all!
03-09-2002, 12:45 PM
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CJV,
AFAIK, a new DME is very obvious in a car which is not driven. It will show 0 hours on DME and if the speedometer shows 4-5 thousand miles it will be pretty hard to explain how you managed that. The next argument will be that the car was in fact modified and the transmission damage is a consequence of that. It appears the problem lies with the particular dealer, not Porsche. Changing DME may result in a problem with Porsche as well.
AFAIK, a new DME is very obvious in a car which is not driven. It will show 0 hours on DME and if the speedometer shows 4-5 thousand miles it will be pretty hard to explain how you managed that. The next argument will be that the car was in fact modified and the transmission damage is a consequence of that. It appears the problem lies with the particular dealer, not Porsche. Changing DME may result in a problem with Porsche as well.
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03-09-2002, 04:12 PM
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VS, the longer story of what happened with the car is that I took it out late one Saturday night to a spot out here where a lot of people with high performance cars race in a special traffic-free area. I certainly didn't buy this car to drive like a mini-van, so this was the first time I took the Porsche out to see what it could do. I probably raced about 6 times off the line against a couple lightly modified corvettes (won every time, gotta love all-wheel-drive!) and also against a Z06 with intake and exhaust work done. (I beat him all the way until about 80, but then my poor restrictive stock Porsche exhaust couldn't keep up) After one of the races, I noticed that the car wasn't going into reverse, and it's been that way ever since. Now, the dealer saw from the data logged that only about 2 hours prior the car had been driven hard, and also they got reports from the car of some ignition fires past red-line, i.e. over-revving. Now I know I didn't miss a downshift, so I'm a little confused as to why that data is there. My theory as to why the transmisson is having problems is that in one of the races I missed second during the 1-2 shift. I don't know if this has happened to anyone else, but one of my biggest gripes about the car is that when you're shifting aggressively, it's too easy to miss second because you're pushing too hard to the left where the plane for reverse is. I wish it had some sort of lock-out collar on the shifter like the Supra does. Anyway, because of the data that the car logged and because the car has sport springs (that are from Porsche anyway!), Gemballa wheels and an airfilter (yes, they actually mentioned the air filter) they're calling the warranty void. They even went beyond that when I continued to argure with them and wanted to send the car's computer to Germany to find out if it had been chipped!! I've spoken to the service manager, the general manager at Hoehn Porsche, Porsche North America, and even an attorney who specializes in the CA lemon law, but none of this seems to be helping. I've decided to just take the car to The Racers Group from now on or a local independent Porsche mechanic, especially since after EVO is done with it I'm sure the warranty will be void anyway. I am however going to let Hoehn Porsche know how unhappy I am with their service on Monday when I go to pick it up. Regardless of being driven hard one time, it is a Porsche afterall, and for every customer like me that drives it hard there are 50 others who keep it in their climate controlled garages to admire and only drive on Sundays. Maybe I should have gotten a Corvette- I didn't see any of their transmissions broken that night!
03-09-2002, 08:49 PM
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Michael,
Sounds like they are trying to rationalize why they should deny the warranty coverage and failing miserably: this "repragrammed" ECU thing is very telling. Let them test it! One less argument for them.
All is well assuming that you didn't start your visit to the dealer with the story you told here.
Practicaly speaking, any dealer as well as PNA and PAG are not going to be sympathetic to a customer who drag raced the car, damaged the transmission and wants it replaced under warranty. Based on that simple observation you may decide what story you want to tell at the next dealeship
In fact, our cars as well as previous generation 993TT are not well suited for drag racing. Transmission, esp. the 1st and 2nd gears can easily be damaged by launches. You are absolutely correct saying that Corvette is a better, sturdier drag racer. P-cars really outshine Corvette on the racetrack where you can go lap after lap without boiling your brakes or overheating transmission.
Sounds like they are trying to rationalize why they should deny the warranty coverage and failing miserably: this "repragrammed" ECU thing is very telling. Let them test it! One less argument for them.
All is well assuming that you didn't start your visit to the dealer with the story you told here.
Practicaly speaking, any dealer as well as PNA and PAG are not going to be sympathetic to a customer who drag raced the car, damaged the transmission and wants it replaced under warranty. Based on that simple observation you may decide what story you want to tell at the next dealeship
In fact, our cars as well as previous generation 993TT are not well suited for drag racing. Transmission, esp. the 1st and 2nd gears can easily be damaged by launches. You are absolutely correct saying that Corvette is a better, sturdier drag racer. P-cars really outshine Corvette on the racetrack where you can go lap after lap without boiling your brakes or overheating transmission.
03-10-2002, 02:30 AM
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It seems like it's a corporate edict to be reluctant to make warrany repairs. The VW forums are filled with similar stories. Some guys are even being denied warranty work because intalling stereo gear(supposedly) is throwing fault codes into the DME. How that affects a transmission is unclear.
03-10-2002, 07:16 PM
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I dont't get it. A guy buys a tt and thinks it's a drag car and wrecks the trans. Why should the dealer pay? There was just a thread on axle hop where Flat 6 was unhappy about his difficulty drag racing. RMRMD correctly responded with an effective launch technique, but added that the car would probably take it 3 or 4 times.
A thousand cars that cost 10% of what a 996 tt costs can beat a tt in a drag race if they have 300 bucks invested in rear tires, a locker, and an automatic transmission. Who in their right mind would take a tt to an open road drag race, and why would he get any sympathy here?
Sorry, the dealer's right, and jerks like this make it harder for the rest of us who use our cars in a way the Porsche engineers envisioned. One reason no private individual can duplicate magazine test times is that nobody dumps the clutch at 4000-5000 rpm's in their own car. A few magazines have published photos of broken gears when they have tried and failed. The same is true for 4wd Lamborghinis. Trained factory test drivers can get ten launches from a clutch, but know that one improper launch ruins the drivetrain. High performance driving is great, but these cars were never built to spin their tires from a standing start. If you want to drag race, get the Z06 or better yet, a Camaro and 30K worth of tattoos. Just my opinion. AS
A thousand cars that cost 10% of what a 996 tt costs can beat a tt in a drag race if they have 300 bucks invested in rear tires, a locker, and an automatic transmission. Who in their right mind would take a tt to an open road drag race, and why would he get any sympathy here?
Sorry, the dealer's right, and jerks like this make it harder for the rest of us who use our cars in a way the Porsche engineers envisioned. One reason no private individual can duplicate magazine test times is that nobody dumps the clutch at 4000-5000 rpm's in their own car. A few magazines have published photos of broken gears when they have tried and failed. The same is true for 4wd Lamborghinis. Trained factory test drivers can get ten launches from a clutch, but know that one improper launch ruins the drivetrain. High performance driving is great, but these cars were never built to spin their tires from a standing start. If you want to drag race, get the Z06 or better yet, a Camaro and 30K worth of tattoos. Just my opinion. AS
03-12-2002, 07:07 AM
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Mr. Stemer,
Say whatever you want, and beleive what you will, but look at this way....
I don't hang around with a bunch of country club people who analyze how shiny the wax is on each others vehicles... I drive mine. I don't lap on the track, its not my bag, thats why I bought a street car... if I wanted to run on the track I would have bought a gt3 and towed it to a track.
I drive my car... Sometimes that involves dragging the car. I think its perfectly fair that arguably the "worlds best car" should be able to prove itself in a straight line... interestingly it is one of the worlds fastest cars (bone stock) in a straight line.
"I'm sorry Porsches don't accelerate, there gearboxes are wimpy" or "Read the specs in C&D if you want to know how fast it is" or "Its a track car, it can't go straight and fast at the same time" or "It only goes fast if its turning"... these sound like lame excuses to me.
Also... I have never dumped the clutch in my car, I've slipped it out quickly when launching (It sure wasn't me saying 4-5K and dump). I might also say I exceeded the specs the magazines gave the car on a rather friendly (read non-abusive) jaunt down the 1/4 mile track... I DID complain about axle hop... you can get the hop if you stab it hard enough while already rolling in a low gear... if the road is damp or cool its fairly easy (surely you've done this?)... LAUNCHING DOES NOT MEAN SPINNING TIRES... that was not the question... my question was how not to spin the tires... but you missed that didn't you.
I've dragged my car 20 or so times... when we looked at the clutch recently, it was perfect, looked next to new (I have 12,000 miles on it), why? Because this is my fourth Porsche (3rd 996) and I've pretty much figured out how to make em leave the line... however the 420ft/lbs or torque break the tires free sometimes and you get axle hop.
That said, I'm selling my Porsche anyways... if you look around there seems to be many cars that will out-stop, out-run, and out-handle the 996TT leather clad lead-sled...
Your Tattoo comment (and I don't have any) puts you into the "typical porsche owner" steriotype that the people you steriotyped perceive about high end car drivers...
Hey... like you said... "Jerks like us" attempt to demonstrate what $111,000 worth of german road iron (street verion of a track car i might add) should be able to do without thinking and Jerks like you make Porsche owners look like... well... jerks.
From the sounds of the other members here and there lust for "street cars" that perform, I'm not the only one that thinks a car like this should be able to leave a light quickly if you want it to??? Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps your right?
Flat6
Say whatever you want, and beleive what you will, but look at this way....
I don't hang around with a bunch of country club people who analyze how shiny the wax is on each others vehicles... I drive mine. I don't lap on the track, its not my bag, thats why I bought a street car... if I wanted to run on the track I would have bought a gt3 and towed it to a track.
I drive my car... Sometimes that involves dragging the car. I think its perfectly fair that arguably the "worlds best car" should be able to prove itself in a straight line... interestingly it is one of the worlds fastest cars (bone stock) in a straight line.
"I'm sorry Porsches don't accelerate, there gearboxes are wimpy" or "Read the specs in C&D if you want to know how fast it is" or "Its a track car, it can't go straight and fast at the same time" or "It only goes fast if its turning"... these sound like lame excuses to me.
Also... I have never dumped the clutch in my car, I've slipped it out quickly when launching (It sure wasn't me saying 4-5K and dump). I might also say I exceeded the specs the magazines gave the car on a rather friendly (read non-abusive) jaunt down the 1/4 mile track... I DID complain about axle hop... you can get the hop if you stab it hard enough while already rolling in a low gear... if the road is damp or cool its fairly easy (surely you've done this?)... LAUNCHING DOES NOT MEAN SPINNING TIRES... that was not the question... my question was how not to spin the tires... but you missed that didn't you.
I've dragged my car 20 or so times... when we looked at the clutch recently, it was perfect, looked next to new (I have 12,000 miles on it), why? Because this is my fourth Porsche (3rd 996) and I've pretty much figured out how to make em leave the line... however the 420ft/lbs or torque break the tires free sometimes and you get axle hop.
That said, I'm selling my Porsche anyways... if you look around there seems to be many cars that will out-stop, out-run, and out-handle the 996TT leather clad lead-sled...
Your Tattoo comment (and I don't have any) puts you into the "typical porsche owner" steriotype that the people you steriotyped perceive about high end car drivers...
Hey... like you said... "Jerks like us" attempt to demonstrate what $111,000 worth of german road iron (street verion of a track car i might add) should be able to do without thinking and Jerks like you make Porsche owners look like... well... jerks.
From the sounds of the other members here and there lust for "street cars" that perform, I'm not the only one that thinks a car like this should be able to leave a light quickly if you want it to??? Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps your right?
Flat6
03-12-2002, 08:58 AM
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Michael, Shank,
FYI Racer's group sends there tranny's out to get worked on. You can skip the middle man by sending it directly to their source. Email me off line if you want more info.
Greg
FYI Racer's group sends there tranny's out to get worked on. You can skip the middle man by sending it directly to their source. Email me off line if you want more info.
Greg
03-12-2002, 09:49 PM
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The X50 is my fourth Porsche starting from a 1980 SC targa I bought new. Like many of the posters on this board, I too enjoy using the cars prety aggressively. I've never had a mechanical failure due to hard use, but then too, I pay attention to the red line, shift quickly but not slam-shifts, and don't try to do something the car was never intended to do. Drag races are won in the garage, not at the track, and successful drag cars have plenty of engineering to absorb hard launches. But they dont stop repeatedly from high speed, don't corner because of the shocks and tire combos, and can't sustain high speed. The sharpest knife in the drawer is not perfect for all applications, as too the best Porsches aren't even good for drag applications.
Ferrari Daytona's of the 60's couldn't drag against a big block Vette with slicks, but I don't think most people would hesitate on selecting their favorite. If drag racing is your forte, that's great. You just saved a bunch of $$. The best car could possibly be a Mustang with nitrous, a back-halved Cmaro with slicks, or a resurrected muscle car from the 60's. You're right, it's not a TT Porsche. But, try to drive one of those in rush hour traffic or a twisty downhill road. Everything's a compromise.
Ferrari Daytona's of the 60's couldn't drag against a big block Vette with slicks, but I don't think most people would hesitate on selecting their favorite. If drag racing is your forte, that's great. You just saved a bunch of $$. The best car could possibly be a Mustang with nitrous, a back-halved Cmaro with slicks, or a resurrected muscle car from the 60's. You're right, it's not a TT Porsche. But, try to drive one of those in rush hour traffic or a twisty downhill road. Everything's a compromise.