Dock

So does PCNA.

Dock

What kind of drift are you talking about? A four wheel drift? Do you consider a four wheel drift "max performing" the car? Is a four wheel drift the quickest way around a corner?

tkerrmd

Dock, I know you and most people on this forum know more about cars and driving and for that matter life than I do and I certainly respect your opinions but I'm pretty sure your above statement (at least I hope) cant be right?!

Is it really true that you own such a wonderful performance car and have never explored its potential on a race track, at a DE, or at least an autocross?!! Say its not so!

If that is really true I think you might find more in your envelope at the track!!!! Try it you'll like.....not love it!!!

Happy Holidays to you, your family, and the forum, I really enjoy the posts!

tom

Dock

Tom...I've never tracked my Turbo.

Merry Christmas

tkerrmd

Dock, Road Atlanta is calling you!!! Some of my friends are going in a few months, maybe we can get together up there!!!

tom

Dock

That would be great. We can get the Atlanta guys together for dinner and socializing...and maybe put together a group drive on our North Georgia mountain roads - or maybe even a run up to the Tail of the Dragon.

Here's a picture from the last Turbo group drive on the TOD...to the right of the yellow Turbo you can see part of the hard left hand turn he has just come off of.




Let me know the dates as early as possible so folks can deconflict their schedules.

1AS

Hi Dock,
First, let me wish you a merry Christmahunnakahyear (I think that gets them all).
Re drifting, for most cars being right at the edge of drifting or carrying a very light drift is very near the limit, but so hard to do that "grip" techniques are more consistnetly fast than 'Non-grip". Did you see Juan Pablo qualify for the pole at Indianapolis?- that was right on the edge. But he carried a drift angle on more than one corner.
The point is when you get right to the limit of the car, it starts to slide and you need to anticipate it and react by releasing the line (what you might view as countersteering or corrective steering is basically just widening the line by releasing the steering angle).
With a big, fast car with high grip levels, I don't see how you can get close to that on the street. Can you really find a corner where you can maximally brake, downshift, get maximal side-loading, and exit under full throtle? At the same time recognizing that if you didn't need to use up all the road, you braked too early and need to try it again 90 seconds later? At maximal speeds there are lots of essential corrections you don't need at 8/10ths. Just because you steered to the edge of the road doesn't mean the car needed to- at max speeds it absolutely does.
I'm not looking to disagree with you, because tracking isn't for everybody, and the desire to do it is not explainable. But, if a top notch driver took you for a ride in your car on the track, I don't think you would contend that you could use the car the same way on the street. Nor, should you try.
For fun, have you ever considered renting a Rotax cart and driving that for a morning on a cart track?
I did that last summer (3 levels of carts, all the way up to shifters) with an instructor. The reason I mention it is that many of the top open wheel drivers came up thru carts, and some continue to practice in them- because a cart is over the tractive limit at all times. A fast lap in a kart is a full drift in each and every corner. ( I am not saying a tt is a kart- but you still need to feel the tractive limits)
Purely for fun, I expect to try the Bondurant drift course this spring. I don't expect to use those techniques in the tt. AS

Dock

Yes.

And concerning the four wheel drift, I understand where it sits in the cornering continuum. I wanted to clarify your definition of "max performing" because of the topic here pertaining to one not being able to appreciate the performance abilities of a Turbo without taking it to the track.

1AS

Is that "the" road? I think there is a center-dividing line suggesting cars could be coming the other way. Nice place for a 6/10ths drive. I'm sure there is a better one than that.
Maybe this discussion would end if you confirmed that you really have experienced the limits of the car and how you ascertained that? We may be talking about two different things.
Dock, I guess I mean that when you go all out, you will eventually exit the black paved parts. Then you may need a tow vehicle, or crew, etc. You can't do it if you are worried about traffic coming the other way, trees at the edge, gravel that washed down, or even surface irregularities, or police. To work up to that point you need warm-up laps, and progressive hot laps.
I don't dispute that you may be a great driver, I'm just puzzled about the difference in our certainties. A really hair-raisng ride on the street doesn't exceed 8/10ths of the cars capabilities, even if in one corner the car slides a little. You really can't enter from max speeds, and you can't late brake because you don't know what the pavement is like. Have you had much competition or track experience? AS

Dock

There are lots of roads in GA/NC/TN where someone could experience the maximum performance of their Porsche. Is every turn taken at 10/10th? No, but even one of them taken at the edge of the performance envelope shows what the car can do. One mountain road here in Georgia has two *wide* lanes plus a wide shoulder going up the mountain, with one wide lane coming down the mountain. In many sections you can visually clear two to three turns (or more) ahead. It's lightly traveled during the week. Someone who wanted to explore the performance envelope outside that needed for the fastest time around the corners would have huge "get well" areas outside the line. Have I seen Porsches use this to four wheel drift? Yes. Can drivers hang the tail out under power as far as they want? Yes. Can drivers go WOT post apex and max perform the car through the next corner or two? Yes. Are these curves just as fun at 8/10s? Yes. Can drivers enter corners from max speed? Yes...and on many of the corners that max speed is not very high...max performance can be achieved on a 30 mph corner as easily as it can be on a 80 mph corner.

Oak

concerned about only 6/10ths and cars coming the other way? you need to drive with some of the guys from my area!

Dock

Here's a road in North Carolina where it's rumored that Porsches have exceeded 6/10s of their performance abilities...

RXDOC

I was at the last N.GA mountain run! I had to bail out early during the run because of a certain 944T and a Single Turbo (700HP) Supra that thought they were on a race track. These were some 20something y-o. The Supra had a couple of cans of race gas in the back next to a bottle of NOS (can you say Pinto?). They made things very uncomfortable. Come on! If you are experiencing the full capabilities of your chipped and modded TT on a two lane public road with all the Sunday morning church crowd and tourists in their minivans, you are delusional. Or suicidal!

Dock

The roads are opened on days other than Sunday, and there's not always traffic up there either.

For those owners who use discretion and who pick their spots, there are places where the full performance of their cars can be used.

The bottom line here is the question about having seen the performance potential of ones Turbo without going to the track. There isn't a minimum number of exposures above "1" that is required before knowing what the car is capable of.

Oak

dock, I have been on those roads, you most definately can "push it". beautiful area/roads. from driving the popular desolate canyon roads in my area which are known to be great "test" roads, the roads in your area are just as challenging at 6/10ths.

I agree, canyon drives and track runs are not the same, but you can experience the essence of performance. even at 6/10ths.

just because you don't track doesn't mean you can't get the "feel"