mitch236

I'm not trying to argue. I know what I said about warantee issues to be true from first hand experience.

PDE is a controlled environment and the cars are owned by Porsche.

Some dealerships may "look the other way" on track driving but if you blow up your motor in the TT (about $30k) you may find few friends at the dealer.

Track your car. That's what Porsches were meant to be. Just don't tell the dealer about it.

RXDOC

There are 14+ responses on this thread....now why would you think my comment is addressing you?
Dock, you have told us to "read the manual" on at least three different threads. Don't you think if we could read, we would have done it by now!

The hypocrisy that is Porsche NA, seems to escape you! Which is evident in every response you have had to tracking issues. We know you don't want to track your TT, but you seem to have a strong opinion about every tracking thread!

I know, I know, I should just read the manual!

RXDOC

I know Mitch, you make some good points. My comments were not directed at you. It's just general frustration.

bert smith

Tom, Bob hit the nail on the head. Your alignment needs to be checked, because something is wrong. You know what your main use of the car is and it needs to be set up and aligned according to that use. Many of our customers have had their car aligned for primarily track use knowing that they will wear through their street tires at a accelerated rate, but that is the trade off you make sometimes. It isnt an issue as long as you are informed of the pro's and con's of the decisions.Cliff notes--You need your alignment checked and adjusted by someone who is going to actually going to take into consideration what your primary use of the car is. Marc

Dock

Did I say your comment was addressed to me?


Then what don't you understand about Porsche's warranty coverage?

I don't consider what PCNA is doing hypocrisy. I think they believe owners should be informed enough to know what the warranty coverage is. If the owner wants to blow it off, then so be it.

My strong opinion concerning tracking and warranty coverage is based on the deal I made with Porsche when I bought my Turbo. That deal is spelled out in the warranty manual. It's that easy. And if I decided to track my Turbo, I'd do so with full knowledge of the consequences associated with anything wearing out or breaking.

RWO

Most manufacturers are excluding claims caused by track use, Porsche is not alone. The problem for them is they cannot ascertain how good a driver you are, if your car was setup properly for track use, and determine if the problem was related to the car, the maintenance, or how it was driven. In addition, 1 track mile is equivalent to 10-20 road miles in "wear and tear". How do they provide a warranty for 50K street miles that might be 10x that in "wear and tear" (if the car was only used on the track)? Keep in mind that in most race cars the service interval is in hours and it's typically rebuilt every 40-80 hours of use.

I understand your pain, been there, done that. Buy a dedicated track car. It's much cheaper to run, more fun, and safer. Frankly, after you drive a good track car you won't want to drive the Turbo anymore, it's just too heavy.

Good luck.

Roy

tkerrmd

Well..........thanks all for all the input, suggestions, empathy, sympathy, and none the least overall entertainment. I think all have good points when viewed from "their point of view". I guess that is the bottom line here. There are certainly those of use who actually bought the car with the philosophy that we could drive to work and the track and thats what the car was made for. I certainly can understand the feeling of wow I have an awesome piece of machinery and I want to admire and protect it and not scratch it or get it dirty. I have the same feeling about my Rolex Daytona and Submariner watches, yes they are beautiful pieces of machinery I dont want to "scratch or hurt them" then I tell myself that I bought them to USE AND ENJOY THE WAY THE MANUFACTURE ADVERTISES and so I fight my OCD feelings and wear the damn watch everyday including track days! Oh well only analogy I could come up with. althought the repeated messege Dock sends is annoying (he probably is a company rep) he IS right and so Dock ya dont need to tell us about the GD manual again....thank you.
But for the rest of us like JP, RXDOC and the other guys who actually bought these cars as a performance car not garage furniture use the above info to our advantage be safe and keep doing what we are doing......love hearing about the real abilities of this unbelievable car!!!!

happy holidays to all........enjoy that car and realize we a less than 1% of people in the country with a car of this worth and performance, we are all truely lucky......

tom

Shark

Tom,
Feel bad that your dealer is bailing on you. This is happening accross all brands right now. I'm sure the TT is a great car to track, you will have to find a new dealer or plan on eating wear items (tires, brakes, clutch)....the tranny was an freak occurance.

If you want a good track car, early 930 turbos can be had for less than $20k. 300 hp (turbo upgrade to 400 easy) in a light 2800 lb rear wheel drive body.

1AS

Tom,
I share your frustration. I do have three simple questions. What are the rear pressures when you come off the track? What are your starting pressures? What was ambient temp on your track days?
I found my X50 to generate incredible heat with dramatic rise in rear pressures with 5 hard laps on a day with ambient temps over 90. That was before I knew to start with much lower pressures than recommended in the manual.
Otherwise, the allignment advice seems to be the single most important. I too feel that Porsche walks away from its implied approval of track use, but we are the small minority who care about this issue. AS

Bob Rouleau

Dock - I'm curious, how many Porsches have you owned? Enough to be aware of the shift at PCNA? Has the quality fallen to the point where a 911 is not expected to endure Driver Ed days without qualms? I'm not talking about tires pads and rotors here, I am talking about the drive train. Is a track day harder than say a long trip on an Autobahn? How about stop and go traffic, is that easier on a clutch and transmission than lapping? I shift far more often on a commute that at the track and at least my engine stays cool.
In the old days, there were exclusions for motorsports competition - racing on other words. No issue there. Now, the exclusion is broader is it not, or perhaps the interpretation?

I would like to know why you've set yourself up as the annointed defender of Porsche's attitude towards warranty claims. Do you work for them? I hope so. It would be nice if you shared our opinions with management.

A Porsche is a very expensive car. As far as I am concerned part of the price I paid for my GT3 (two of them actually) is for durability - a car which can take track miles without a care. Fact is my cars have been perfectly reliable and I expect nothing less. If something breaks, something was wrong with the part or the design and I expect Porsche to be embarrassed and fix it - just like they used to. If the rules are changed and a Porsche is fit only for cruising boulevards, tell me. I assume you are aware that Ferrari has no such exclusions on warranty. Heck they even cover their ceramic brakes if they fail on a car which is track driven.

Oak

once again.......loose lips sink ships.

tkerrmd

Alex, the car was set up at the dealer for their "track set up" and tire pressures were carefully, no obsessively monitored at the track, I too noted very soon how fast the tires heated and continued to carefully bled them as the day went on, a good tip for newbies at the track with this set up, thanks.

Bob, WELL SAID, glad real driving enthusiasts are saying the real reasons we bought and till now have been loyal to Porsche, I hope the company realizes that that is what made them and dont forget where they came from.......Thanks for you experienced input

tom

TT Surgeon

That's not really WGI in my avatar, actually just a mall parking lot. In case anybody is interested.

mooty

i dont have PCCB i can't speak to that.
but i feel porsches are meant to be driven HARD. and no street driving/canyon carving can be considered HARD driving. thus for me porsches are to be track driven. not all dealers are the same. my two local dealers go out of their way to help me out here and there. and yes, they know how HARD i drive the thing and they are happy to see that it's being used that way. find a different dealer to work with.

with regard to tire. no dealer/manufacturer will ever warranty tires.

i thought about why you get inside tire wear, but can't come up with reason. ususally inside wear is due to too much camber and too much street driving. however, you said dealer set up with track alignment. dealers are often very conservative, and will not do more than 2 deg of camber i am sure. so you shoudn't have inside split on MPS this fast. i used to run 2 deg all around with street mps (not cup) on a GT3 with quite a bit of street miles. the rear lasted 5000 miles adn front about 8k, with 3 very hard track days. perhaps the tire temp was off or the tires were defective to start with?

1AS

Tom,
Once you know the specifics on the current rear camber settings, you may have your answer. The simple explanation would be street use wearing away the inside edge.
From you reply, I'm assuming you don't see much over 50 pounds of pressuere in the rears, but I have seen well over 60 with near-immediate tire destruction. Long ago there was a post on this board pointing out how current tire construction can result in outer edge wear when over-inflated, and center wear when under-inflated- in contrast to historic knowledge.
When you consider the incredible load you put on these tires on corner exit, it seems likely that small variances in critical factors can become problematic. In any case, I doubt it will be the fault of bad tire construction. Heat, pressure and allignment are the gremlins.
Lastly, track miles accelerate wear astronomically. My personal estimate is at least a factor of 10 fold. But, I have seen perfectly good street tires ruined in one autocross where the total distance driven was less than 2 miles. Rolling the edges and sliding the tires can make the tires wear like an art gum eraser.
My Elise, which is far easier on tires, has totally used up it's Yoko 38's in about 1500 track miles. If everything is checked and is found to be "normal", then you may have just used up the set. AS