Mooty, thanks for your input. You truely feel the same way I do about alot of the track stuff and that was why I was so close to getting a GT3 (spent 10k more for my current car then a 1 year newer GT3 that I almost bought) I thought the TT would be more of "best of both worlds" to me and I may have been wrong. If my dealer was track friendly and supportive I would consider a GT3, but now want to wait for the new ones to come out. In the mean time I am going to change my suspension and start taking the car to a local porsche speed shop and as far as the dealer is concerned I DONT TRACK MY CAR ANYMORE.
As for wear items I am glad to "wear stuff out" and buy new stuff, no problem as long as its MY fault I'm glad to do it!

AS, thanks for the additional input, as always informative and correct.

tom

 

I don't go around "setting myself up" on any topic.

Concerning the question of Porsche's current warranty coverage with regard to tracking/racing - I can't see this as anything other than a very simple answer.

 

Tom, it seems that you believe there are just two types of Porsche owners; those who track their cars, and those that keep them parked in the garage. Is this a correct statement of your opinion?

 

.. JMHO, But I would strongly suggest that if the Dealers supported "pre-track" inspections that they had an obligation to convey track use would void warranty... again, IMHO.. in a court of law I think you would clearly win if you had a car 'tech inspected' at a dealer and was not verbally or in writing notified of possible warranty issues...and th4en made a claim that was denied because of track use....

I think there is an implicit agreement of warranty claims, particularily if this is suggested by dealer, and if not disclosed... (it scares me to even think of the possibility that the inspections were an intentional dupe to void future claims)..

I mention this particularily if there is a claim denied because you previously 'tracked' your car.... although there is no proof of 'current' use... since 'you' tracked the car under the previous assumptions//(e.g. dealer 'approval') thoughts??

 

Here's my take on this. I completely understand why Porsche cannot warrantee track use of its cars. If you knew what the car maintainence budget for a cup car is you would understand as well. Now DE is a little harder to figure out. On the one hand, it is for the car enthusiast and isn't racing. It is billed as a great way to learn how to properly drive your car. The reality is that recently, DE has become as agressive as racing. Most guys I know run very hard. They prefer DE for differing reasons but few do it because they don't have to run as hard. Now add the guy who isn't really that good at car preservation. He is using up brakes, tires, clutches, gearboxes.... etc. You get the idea. How can a car company be expected to foot the bill for that? Now add to the mix the fact that alot of track guys modify the performance of the power plant. It is unbelievable that Porsche should be liable for that.

It is true that Porsche markets their cars as being of the same ilk as what we see on TV. Remember the cars that are raced professionally have absolutely no warantee (except in rare 0 hour problems).


On the other hand, what they don't know can't be used against you. As was stated before, Loose lips sink ships.

 

Dock, please, provide a little more detail in your responses. I have been driving Porsches since 1972. I have raced them as well, but my comments apply to DE.

Not so many years ago, our dealers would attend Driver's Ed events and provide mechanics with spare parts to help out cars that had problems. There was never a question of "no warranty". In some cases dealers paid for a free DE with the purchase of any Porsche.

It was accepted that Porsches were designed and built to survive Driver's Ed events. My question (ignored I believe) about your past history with the marque relates to that. One of the selling points of the brand was that unlike lesser breeds, Porsches were covered even if driven on the track in non competitive events. Were you aware of that?

In my earlier post I theorized that the attitude has changed and I feel that it diminishes the brand. Please speak to that.

You also pose the question "are their two kinds of owners, those who track and those who keep them in the garage?". I'm not sure what contribution that question is supposed to make to this thread.

I won't speak for anyone else, but as far as I am concerned, a Porsche owner who does not attend DE is missing an important part of the Porsche Experience. These cars perform so extraordinairily well that the car cannot not be fully appreciated on public roads.

Teaching DE , one of my pleasures is to watch drivers discover just how good a Porsche really is. That appreciation contributes a lot to "brand loyalty" coveted by manufactuers.

DE is not racing and the program is designed to teach drivers how to correctly handle a high performance car. Anyone who has gone through the program will attest to the fact that he/she learned a lot about driving, notwithstanding years of experience operating a car on the street.

With respect to so called wear and tear, there seems to be a gnereal feeling that DE is tough on a car. My experience is different. I do make exception for consumables like tires, rotors, and pads.

Looking back at my 1995 993 - I used it at 20 track days per year. My wife then drove it for 15 track days a year. I sold the car to a friend in 2002 and he tracks the car 20 days a year. Failures? None. Of course it had all the usual 993 bugs - exploding rear glass, faulty windshield etc. but there have been no failures whatsoever in 10 years!! of track use. In 2000 I bought a boxster S I tracked it for 2 years and sold it to a pal who has been tracking it ever since. No failures after five years of DE. frankly I consider that performance to be normal for a Porsche. It should be noted that cars that are used for DE are more likely to be carefully maintained than a street only car.

As the CI of a very active region, I see a lot of cars at DE and failures are extremely rare. So, why the perception that tracking is so hard on a car?

Regards,

 

Point of reference for this generation of Porschephiles.
As Bob points out, the previous generation (I'm 57) were invited by dealers to bring our cars to the track where instructors they hired (Elford and Bell in one instance) demonstrated your car to you at max speed, then rode with you when you did it!
Not only was there a collection of Porsche mechanics to do things like disable your anti-lock brakes so you could see the difference they made in back-to-back panic stops, they brought demos of all their cars including a 928, 968, and 964 turbo to try ON THE TRACK. All warranty's were fully in force under the single proviso that each owner come with a pre-inspection certificate from the dealer which cost $150. The cost of the event was trivial. Everyone left the track feeling like Porsches were the only car you could confidently track, because they were designed and built to be tough enough.
Last year, it changed.
Without anything but new language in the manual (Buyer beware- they don't give you one before you buy the car!), the support was withdrawn. But, they continued to advertise like nothing changed, emphasizing the track-worthiness of components like PCCB's. I believe it was the expense of that component that broke the back of previous commitment.
To be fair, tracking a ttX50 imposes a higher stress load on all components as compared to a normally aspirated 964. But frankly, when I ordered my tt in 2000, I anticipated putting in a roll bar and extinguisher and entering Midwest Council's one hour enduro at Blackhawk Farms. That is a true wheel-to-wheel race. I had entered my Elise previously and believed the tt could compete for an overall win on street tires. Silly me, because I did not anticipate that even that would vacate my warranty.
Now, my tt is relegated to occasional track demos (typically 8/10ths driving) and daily street use. Still love it, but won't use it as a frequent track car, since components I thought were track-worthy seemed not to be deemed so by the factory. That is our loss.
I do understand that Chevrolet however honors the warranty on ZO6's that have been tracked. A friend had a broken brake rotor replaced under warranty. AS

 

Tom made a statement and I'm trying to make sure I understand his position.

 

Bob and AS as usual well said (again) and it is good that experienced members of this forum who actually know what it is like to drive a car on the track give their "opinion" and there point of view, it is very valuable to us all.
It is obvious that Porsche now IMHO "talks the talk, but DOES NOT walk the walk" So at this point buyer beware! This car is now recognized by the factory as a "street use only" car and any form of track driving completely voids the warranty.
So be it. As I have previously stated I now do not track my car. Of course now any problem that arises (outside of wear and tear which is not what we are talking about) will not be covered because "THE CAR HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY TRACKED"
So now I guess the question is does the history of a previous track event void all future warranties?

To digress, it is ironic that all the modders that have a problem, reverse and or hide their doings when a warranty problems arises and go back to the dealer for a "warranty" repair. What is worse? A performance car driven as intended and then not being covered or a car with unfactory mods failing and the going to the dealer and expecting repairs. Or do we all have to become decitful in some way?

Oh yea, and Dock I didnt realize I attempted to list all the possible combinations and permutations of the various types of porsche owners and drivers so if you fall in a catagory somewhere between your car being garage furniture and someone who uses his car as a performance vehicle legally ie at the track, sorry I didnt mention your catagory, no insult intended.

tom

 

Dealers who "look the other way" concerning warranty work on modified and/or tracked Porsches do so at their own risk. They are operating outside PAG's stated coverage.


The attitude of the dealers has changed because PCNA has been more aggressive in making sure the warranty is applied correctly.

I've experienced the full range of my Porsche's performance envelope and have never had it on the track.

 

No insult taken.

Based on the drift of your posts on the forum it seemed like you considered those who track their Porsche to somehow be the keepers of some "holy grail" and/or the only *real* Porsche enthusiasts. Based on your statement above, I realize that I had the incorrect impression. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Dock - thanks for clarifying that PCNA has become more aggressive about warranty claims. That's in keeping with things we have seen posted. I'm sure the zone tech reps have some interesting tales to tell about abuse. The guy who handles this region is a nice guy and I've got good relations with him. I'll see if I can get him for lunch some day and get the other side of the story.

I will re-iterate my view that one of the distinguishing marks of Porsche cars was the fact that dealers promoted their track worthiness and supported Driver's Ed.

Trackies are the most enthusiastic promoters of the brand - except those that have been (in their opinion) unfairly treated on a warranty claim. I hope the folks in marketing do a little research. Perhaps the additional savings are not worth the loss of good will and "viral marketing".

I realize that some cases are gray areas - the problem is that PCNA is the judge and jury. Tom's problem coomes to mind. Is it abuse or, a weakness in the design? I have no beef if a car has been modified in some meaningful way (chipping a turbo for example) or perhaps use of spacers and extra wide wheels leading to a bearing failure.

On the other hand, any Porsche should stand up to Driver's Ed without failures, certainly all of mine have for the past 30 odd years spanning more than a dozen different cars. I speculate that the good-will lost on some of these (more legitimate) claims may not be worth the loss in brand loyalty they cause. Further, the tendency to "go underground" will likely cause a drop in service revenue for dealers to the benefit of independents.

Best regards and happiness for the Holidays.

 

The biggest issue is that we all post our trials and tribulations on these boards... The dealers READ all the different message boards... Don't think they don't !!! I know for a fact that Tom's dealer does.. So it makes their position an easy one based on threads they read... They can just say "hey, you tracked the car and it is not covered based on what is stated in your manual" I'm not saying this is right, but it sure makes it easy on them to take that position.

 

Dock, my bad.....

Happy Holidays and thanks for all your insite I learn alot and really enjoy it

tom

 

Regarding "using" the car and track use.
I would estimate I've driven over 1,000,000 miles, and nearly every one over the speed limit including several thousand track miles. Personally, I don't see how you can use over 90% of a tt's capabilities on the road. That is a serious statement.
When you push past 90%, you are on an edge where you could be wrong, and exceed the car's limits. For that, you need runoff room. It is not possible to do that on the street for more than an instant, and particularly not possible without endangering the lives and property of others who aten't invested in the process.
You can use short bursts of maximal linear accleleration, or howl around an off ramp, but stringing together two corners and a straight at maximum velocity is not attainable wthout violating the rights of others and risking your life.
Today, I came home in my X50, carving thru 25 miles of I94traffic with an average speed of about 85 (spped limit 55-65) and bursts to 100. I never exceeded 50% of the car's capabilities, and that was on snow tires.
Dock, I've driven with some great drivers, and you may be one, but when we are speaking of using the car to it's limits, I don't think we are describing the same thing. If you can turn off the PSM and drift your tt on the street, it says two things about you. You are supernatural and you are nuts.
This wouldn't be true if you drove an Elise, for example, which on street tires can be drifted on an off ramp or on ramp. I just don't see it in a tt, especially one with enhanced power. AS