X-50 OWNERS
12-13-2005, 02:39 PM
#1
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X-50 OWNERS
this is just an FYI, "blew my trans at the track" this weekend. Needs new third gear and syncro. Only posting this for everyones knowledge. Saw the inside of this thing and cant see any difference from plain TT. No it doesnt have "steel " syncros anywhere.
My question is what did the orginal owner who coughed up $17,500 get as an "upgraded" tranny in these cars or is it a joke?
The dealer is currently rebuilding my trans for about 5k. I have talked to the expert in the field Brian Copans and really not much else to offer.
So, be careful this cars are powerful and I dont know how much the tranny can take! (and there were NO over rev codes) but it is "still my fault" even though the car is still under warranty.
happy holidays
tom
My question is what did the orginal owner who coughed up $17,500 get as an "upgraded" tranny in these cars or is it a joke?
The dealer is currently rebuilding my trans for about 5k. I have talked to the expert in the field Brian Copans and really not much else to offer.
So, be careful this cars are powerful and I dont know how much the tranny can take! (and there were NO over rev codes) but it is "still my fault" even though the car is still under warranty.
happy holidays
tom
12-13-2005, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tkerrmd
......My question is what did the orginal owner who coughed up $17,500 get as an "upgraded" tranny in these cars or is it a joke?...
tom
tom
12-13-2005, 03:55 PM
#5
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According to Porsche and their little book of "abuse" pictures my trans matches with the abnormal abuse and not a "mechanical failure". Even with no over rev codes? If I would have done something wrong, missed a gear, missed a shift etc I would have said so, I didnt.......but will still have to pay. Thinking of going to a GT-2
12-13-2005, 04:07 PM
#6
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Tom, according to my Technik (sic) manual for the GT2, the syncros on 3-4-5-6 and Reverse are steel. I thought the X50 had the same tranny as the GT2, it appears not.
Rgds,
Rgds,
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12-13-2005, 05:10 PM
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I am sorry, but this is ridiculous!!! I have been a Porsche owner for 20 years. I have owned 7 Porsches in that time! Tom, if they are not going to honor a transmission rebuild, I would get a lawyer and sue them. They sell you a TT, upgrade it with the X50, then tell you that you are not supposed to track it! So what is the purpose of an ultra hi-performance TT? Porsche has a long history of road racing, yet they tell us not to take the cars to the track!
I am so fed up with dealers, I want to sell my TT, buy an EVO8, WRX or 350Z, mod it, tear up the warranty and take it to the track.
I took my TT to the dealer for a final "check-up" before the warranty ended. They told me there were multiple misfires, it was probably the spark plugs, but they wouldn't fix it "until the car was put back to stock". Meaning they wanted to change out my BMC air filter. They didn't even know about the chip flash.
I am so fed up with dealers, I want to sell my TT, buy an EVO8, WRX or 350Z, mod it, tear up the warranty and take it to the track.
I took my TT to the dealer for a final "check-up" before the warranty ended. They told me there were multiple misfires, it was probably the spark plugs, but they wouldn't fix it "until the car was put back to stock". Meaning they wanted to change out my BMC air filter. They didn't even know about the chip flash.
12-13-2005, 05:32 PM
#10
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Originally Posted by RXDOC
They sell you a TT, upgrade it with the X50, then tell you that you are not supposed to track it! ... Porsche has a long history of road racing, yet they tell us not to take the cars to the track!
12-13-2005, 05:33 PM
#11
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In the far past, there was a poster who went by Bently who I think addressd this issue. Apparantly, there are definitive signs of damage from missed shifts as opposed to failure of a part. This does seem logical. If it was a forced shift that casused the problem, it may not be a warranty issue. It is possible that the subsequent efforts to find the gear caused the grinding which was later interpreted as "abuse"
Not being an expert, I don't know if our synchro's are supposed to look different, but somebody out there probably knows. It' s definitely in the specification for the X50.
Sorry to hear about your hardship. Track miles are generally expensive, and the more power you have, the more expensive it gets. If you aremn't the original owner, is it possible that the trans on your car was laready replaced? (with the wrong one)
When I was racing vintage Can-Am, $5000 in repair for one week-end wasn't unusual. While I love my X50 on the street, it's not my favorite track car. You may be happier with a lighter, simpler, track-dedicated vehicle.
AS
Not being an expert, I don't know if our synchro's are supposed to look different, but somebody out there probably knows. It' s definitely in the specification for the X50.
Sorry to hear about your hardship. Track miles are generally expensive, and the more power you have, the more expensive it gets. If you aremn't the original owner, is it possible that the trans on your car was laready replaced? (with the wrong one)
When I was racing vintage Can-Am, $5000 in repair for one week-end wasn't unusual. While I love my X50 on the street, it's not my favorite track car. You may be happier with a lighter, simpler, track-dedicated vehicle.
AS
12-13-2005, 05:38 PM
#12
It would still burn my hide if the car was under warrantee. Porsche continues to dissappoint its most wealthy customers.
12-13-2005, 06:07 PM
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Another FWIW - my experience is that all the boxster and all 996's including the GT2 and GT3 have a problem with a balky shifter when going from 2nd to 3rd under heavy load. All the local GT3's guys have noticed it and I had it on my GT2 and 2000 Boxster S.
I stumbled on a cure, the tranny fluid needs to be changed often. Dunno if this explains what happened to Tom's car, but when the damn thing refuses to go into gear and your're headed to an apex with no power, one tends to push the sucker pretty hard into gear. At least one guy managed to shove it into 1st gear (oooops!). When I changed my fluid, I noticed quite a few fuzzy bits of metal on the magnet. Maybe this is the cause of Tom's problem?
This suggests the following basis for a "discussion" with the dealer:
1) Is the X50 tranny supposed to have the tougher steel synchros. If so, I'd claim it is not abuse, rather a mistake, the wrong transmission was fitted.
2) Knowing that a lot of people have had problems on the 2-3 shift, I could also argue a design flaw since changing the fluid at the normal intervals is not preventive. I suspect a lot of guys on the list (GT3 owners for sure) will testify to the balky 2-3 shift. That sounds like a design flaw to me.
I stumbled on a cure, the tranny fluid needs to be changed often. Dunno if this explains what happened to Tom's car, but when the damn thing refuses to go into gear and your're headed to an apex with no power, one tends to push the sucker pretty hard into gear. At least one guy managed to shove it into 1st gear (oooops!). When I changed my fluid, I noticed quite a few fuzzy bits of metal on the magnet. Maybe this is the cause of Tom's problem?
This suggests the following basis for a "discussion" with the dealer:
1) Is the X50 tranny supposed to have the tougher steel synchros. If so, I'd claim it is not abuse, rather a mistake, the wrong transmission was fitted.
2) Knowing that a lot of people have had problems on the 2-3 shift, I could also argue a design flaw since changing the fluid at the normal intervals is not preventive. I suspect a lot of guys on the list (GT3 owners for sure) will testify to the balky 2-3 shift. That sounds like a design flaw to me.
12-13-2005, 06:23 PM
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I bought a new Viper in 01, and the tranny blew up 1,200 miles later. The service manager was a total *****, and he really seemed pissed that a guy my age would have a car like that, when the only Viper he had was sitting on his desk holding papers down. He said that it was my fault, and that transmissions don't just break. I called all the way to the top and got it covered by the warranty, as it should have been. I also complained to Dodge about him which probably didn't do much good.
12-13-2005, 07:09 PM
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Here is some information on the problems you all may or may not be having.
First of all, I doubt but cannot confirm that the X50 trans has steel synchros. Regular turbos certainly do not. I doubt that there is any difference between an X50 and standard Turbo, but I have not confirmed this.
The Turbo, GT2, GT3, 996 Cup, GT3R all use basically the same transmission. The race cars and to lesser extent the GTs have a bunch of upgraded parts that make the boxes more durable under hard use. The basic design itself is very well proven and is very capable of holding up to any power level for DE use.
The stock brass synchros are not too difficult to break. If the transmission is disassembled and the synchro rings are in pieces, the driver is responsible. This happens because of excessive force used on the shift lever. Steel synchros won't break like this. If the synchro is burned then the driver is also responsible. Burning occurs when the trans is forced into gear with a large rev mismatch and a lot of force on the shift lever. Steel synchros will burn just like brass ones.
You can call this abuse or you can call it track use.
If you are gentle with the shift lever you are not going to break the transmission. You can shift as fast as you want to, but if it doesn't want to go into gear, and you force it, it will break.
I think the hard 2-3 upshift is caused by a number of things. There is a large rpm drop between 2nd and 3rd which means the synchro is going to work hard if you are shifting fast. The clutch disc is fairly massive (unlike the race cars which have nice light clutch discs) and this gives the synchro a hard time. Turbos have assymetric engaging teeth on 3rd gear which should allow 3rd to engage a little easier, but the synchro still has to pull the mass of the input shaft and clutch down to speed before it will drop into gear.
Different gear oils affect the how quickly the synchros work. The race cars use Mobil 1 75w-90 SHC (not LS) and this works very well. I don't know what is recommended in street cars.
Short shifters do not really affect the transmission directly. The do however affect how the driver uses the transmission. I think it is harder for the driver to treat the gearbox right with a short shifter. At the same time though, the stock throw is pretty long. I would recommend a Ruf type short shift over a B&M for a Turbo or GT2/3. The B&M seems to work well in a standard 996.
The popping out of 2nd is a separate issue and it is likely a problem with the transmission's initial assembly in most cases.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
First of all, I doubt but cannot confirm that the X50 trans has steel synchros. Regular turbos certainly do not. I doubt that there is any difference between an X50 and standard Turbo, but I have not confirmed this.
The Turbo, GT2, GT3, 996 Cup, GT3R all use basically the same transmission. The race cars and to lesser extent the GTs have a bunch of upgraded parts that make the boxes more durable under hard use. The basic design itself is very well proven and is very capable of holding up to any power level for DE use.
The stock brass synchros are not too difficult to break. If the transmission is disassembled and the synchro rings are in pieces, the driver is responsible. This happens because of excessive force used on the shift lever. Steel synchros won't break like this. If the synchro is burned then the driver is also responsible. Burning occurs when the trans is forced into gear with a large rev mismatch and a lot of force on the shift lever. Steel synchros will burn just like brass ones.
You can call this abuse or you can call it track use.
If you are gentle with the shift lever you are not going to break the transmission. You can shift as fast as you want to, but if it doesn't want to go into gear, and you force it, it will break.
I think the hard 2-3 upshift is caused by a number of things. There is a large rpm drop between 2nd and 3rd which means the synchro is going to work hard if you are shifting fast. The clutch disc is fairly massive (unlike the race cars which have nice light clutch discs) and this gives the synchro a hard time. Turbos have assymetric engaging teeth on 3rd gear which should allow 3rd to engage a little easier, but the synchro still has to pull the mass of the input shaft and clutch down to speed before it will drop into gear.
Different gear oils affect the how quickly the synchros work. The race cars use Mobil 1 75w-90 SHC (not LS) and this works very well. I don't know what is recommended in street cars.
Short shifters do not really affect the transmission directly. The do however affect how the driver uses the transmission. I think it is harder for the driver to treat the gearbox right with a short shifter. At the same time though, the stock throw is pretty long. I would recommend a Ruf type short shift over a B&M for a Turbo or GT2/3. The B&M seems to work well in a standard 996.
The popping out of 2nd is a separate issue and it is likely a problem with the transmission's initial assembly in most cases.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports