Jean

Mark, I am talking trap speed for HP measurement. For low ETs you need more than just HP.
Not using mathematical formulas, using actual measurements on GPS devices and videos. However I agree with you that a lot of bench racing is out there.

markski

I agree....and I use a controlled environment like a 1/4 track to see my mph and my ETs. those numbers do not bs. at 35 psi I run 137 in my evo 8. at 17 psi I ran 124 on my old set up( p car).

sharkster

LOL no doubt it is a bit like Beirut... Well I have dynod my car... and if you do the AWD conversion at 27-28% then it does come out to 800. And in truth we've not yet seen the best of what my car can do in the 1/4 (mostly my own fault with little niggles or bad prep). It _should_ be trapping 140 and I believe it has that in there and will soon. For as much drag racing as I do I should really be using stock size tires up front (instead of 275s which DO hurt the MPH). I should also get rid of the 3 degrees of camber (also hurts mph). I guess what I'm saying is that if you use our "silly" dynos in the US and the conversion factor it does come out to that but I also agree that my car should trap higher than 135. In fact it already did (although I did not launch and just "rolled" out on that run) run a 138.6 (just a 10.9 on that run).

PS And besides you can do it cos your 993TT is probably 300-400 pounds ligther than my big piggy!

sharkster

In defense of Todd's (I believe even on the site is says 900 or 950?), his car trapped 140 but in Vegas at altitude in 100 degree heat (kinda like my 135). His mph would be around 145 at sea level...

mikerosi

YEAH I remember BEIRUT.........He`s the best damn ball player that ever lived!!!!!!!

sharkster

Haha sleeping? If I told you why I am not (it's cos I'm maybe heading out to the track- trying some new plugs)... I agree though man, there are many factors, I mean my gearing is different, my drive train loss is worse than the 6speed. If I had a 6speed I do feel that I would trap higher too I agree though because the one or two times I've not gunned it off of the line I got that higher traps (the 138.7 etc..).

On the very same track I had a friend that had a 1200RWHP Viper and again could not break past 141mph. He should be way faster than that...

I do feel a good indicator of my car (and due to the lag) would be a 1 mile run. I'm honestly too chicken to do it though. I put my hands up there... I think when you measured my 60-130 you said it was in the mid 7s? I'll get some of those too.

Incidentally on the "Street" and with a G-Tech and Radar Gun the car does trap above 140 but I don't feel those are as real although it's fun to see how fast I think I am....

Craig.

Hmmmmm . . . a 750 hp car does 62-124 in 5.3 seconds, yet PSI’s advertised 800 hp car, which is also considerably lighter than stock, could only manage 6.2 seconds over the same distance. Does that mean PSI has over-stated its hp? Perhaps it means Gemballa understated its hp. Perhaps it means neither, and is simply a reflection of different conditions when the tests were performed. If the latter explanation is accurate, that would also explain why we have so many different figures for the various cars being discussed (just as Sharky has explained several times).

Here we go again. As previously explained ad nauseam:

1. I have not dynoed my car because it is a Tip and Tips historically have problems on dynos (ask Sharky) -- I do not want to risk it.

2. I do not have a ¼ time slip because I do not have a roll bar and I do not want to drive several hours to the closest ¼ mile track, only to be kicked out after the first pass, then drive several hours back home.

3. I only posted the hp “guesstimate” because Woodster expressly asked for it, and I clearly stated that it was not a “claim,” but rather, an unsubstantiated “guesstimate” based upon the dyno results of a different car. You subsequently acknowledged that I was not making any such “claim” when you posted:

In retrospect, I should have simply told Woodster that I have not dynoed my car, and stopped there, without providing a “guesstimate.” However, given that a car with the same turbos and fuel system, but less boost and mods than my car, had been dynoed (732 rwhp -- http://www.evoms.com/gt800_vs_stock_hp_and_tq.jpg ), I had a rough basis for my “guesstimate” so I tried to answer Woodster, rather than simply blowing him off. Even if one were to assume that I am making no more hp than the reference car, notwithstanding my additional boost and mods, that would still put me over 800 hp at the crank. I understand that you do not accept the above-referenced dyno results and, frankly, I have no basis or ability to substantiate EVO's posted dyno (nor am I inclined to do so). Therefore, to make matters simpler, I am no longer proffering any “guesstimate” about my hp -- I am not claiming 950 hp or 800 hp or even 480 hp -- I am withdrawing my prior, unsubstantiated “guesstimate” because, as other have correctly observed, it lacks verification, so no need for further derogatory comments.

Now, back to the issues at hand.

Jean, do you have any explanation for why Gemballa’s 750 hp car is so much faster than PSI’s lighter 800 hp car? Do you have any EVIDENCE/PROOF (as opposed to vague, unscientific comparisons of dyno results to trap speeds) that all American tuners, or any in particular, are proffering false dyno results, as claimed by Woodster? I posted a link to an EVO MS dyno from its website . . . do you have any evidence or proof that that dyno result was intentionally manipulated or, using Woodster's vernacular, "massaged" in order to produce an inaccurate result? Do you think the rank “tuner bashing” prevalent on this thread, and others, is beneficial to Rennlist?

Craig

Jean

Craig
In case you have not noticed, my name is not Woodster, so I don't have to substantiate any of the things he says nor justify or explain his claims, so get your facts right for once. I never said PSI cars were fast, I said they were respectable as tuners.

I will not comment on your other "ad nauseam" excuses and comments because of fears to throw up . I must say however that your HP guesstimates thread like adding potatoes in a bag was very very funny, it is a classic now. Just as the intercooler end tanks gains, and yours being the "best exhaust, period", three great "must read" scientific posts.

How can I explain to someone with your broad proven scientific background that I never said the dynos were manipulated, but rather that a 8 second run on a dyno does not mean much more (actually it does) than your HP/potato guesstimate.

Broaden your horizons beyond how far your eyesight takes you, go visit the world and talk to Porsche tuners that have been doing this for 40 years and see how they dyno their cars and fly your car to put it on their bench. I did, and can tell you that their dyno runs are not 8 sec runs, and they are DIN corrected.

Then you might understand why your 950HP/potato guesstimate is more like 700 on the street, and why EVOMS GT900 performance with 3130lbs in the shootout sucks, or why a Stage 4 EVO clocks 9.3 seconds in a 60-130mph when an upsolute GT2 clocks the same day 8.7 seconds (on the same GPS based device). Would you be able to do a lbs/hp ratio? Or is it not scientific enough?

Oh and please get a videocamera or buy one of those AX22 units for $1k and time a few 60-130 mph runs, or 0-130mph, or whatever, just be a bit more scientific than your potato guesstimate.

I really really tried to be nice here trust me.

tkerrmd

Wish you guys would get to Florida tracks! Between, PCA, Goldcoast and Suncoast, PBOC, and Chin events lots to do! Sebring seems best to me! You guys are so close I'm sure you have been here plenty of times. Let me know when you are coming down.. Trying to do the Road Atlanta De.

tom

RXDOC

Tom:
Why don't you get on line and register for the PCA DE On Jan 21. It's the PeachState PCA DE. It will be a blast. You wouldn't believe how much HP our cars pick up with the cold/dense temp. in January in Georgia!

No, I have never been to any Florida tracks. I have done Barber a few times, and that's about it. Well believe it or not all the tracking I ever get to do is at RA. It's just the arrangement I have with my Parole Officer.....it's complicated.

Craig.

Jean,

I acknowledged that my “guesstimate” was unwise and inaccurate, I withdraw it, and I respectfully requested that you refrain from denigrating me based thereon. How did you respond? You further berated and disparaged me. Your hostility is unwarranted and inappropriate.

You estimate that I am making 700 hp (even though I posted a dyno of a similarly equipped car, with less boost and mods, making 732 hp at the wheels) . . . . fine, I can live with that . . . 700 hp is a **** load of power and I am thrilled to have attained that level. Therefore, for purposes of this discussion, I will gleefully adopt your 700 hp estimate. Nothing left to argue about there.

I have no intention of purchasing a $1,000 AX22 or flying my car to Europe (your suggestions) simply to satisfy the curiosity of a few people here. I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else. Rather, as previously noted, I enjoy the performance of my car on a daily basis, and that is all that matters to me. Lets leave it at that. I may film a 60-130 run at some point in the future, but I’m in no rush, as it will add nothing to my enjoyment. Given your 700 hp estimate, I should be somewhere in the high 6 second range. I would be thrilled with such a time. Please do not continue to bate me on this issue. I will post a video if and when I get sufficiently motivated to make one. Otherwise, I will live with your hp estimate.

Regarding my exhaust, I merely stated my opinion that an exhaust with straight through mufflers and no cats will likely produce more power than an exhaust with chamber mufflers and cats (the design employed by the vast majority of the companies manufacturing exhausts for 996TTs). I do not base this opinion on my own personal expertise, but rather, on the expertise of the company I hired to manufacture my exhaust . . . a company that specializes in high performance exhaust systems. Stephen’s (IA) test results back up this simple premise, as the Fabspeed exhaust (which uses straight through mufflers) produced more power than other exhausts using chamber mufflers. This is also why every race muffler I am aware of (certain race classes require mufflers) employ a straight through design, rather than chamber mufflers. Additionally, many here have posted that merely removing the cats adds power. Once again, I have no test results on my exhaust to support my uninformed opinions and you are free to disagree. If you can supply a test car and another exhaust for comparison purposes (local to me), I will gladly supply my exhaust for a dyno comparison.

Regarding my intercooler end tanks, the photos I previously posted appear to depict that my end tanks have a less restrictive air path than OEM intercooler end tanks. I have no idea whether this actually translates to more power. Others far more knowledgeable than I have opined that they do. The designs employed by other intercooler manufactures suggest that this is a better design. Nevertheless, I have no idea what the gains are, if any, and I should not have ventured a guess on this issue.

In the future, I will be more careful not to proffer unsubstantiated “guesstimates,” as they are largely worthless. All I ask of you is a more civil tone in your discussions with me (e.g., suggesting that responding to my post nearly caused you to “throw up”). Given that I have abandoned my prior “guesstimate” of hp and, instead, adopted your 700 hp estimate, there is no reason for you to further disparage me.

As to my request that you support Woodster’s comments, you are correct . . . that is for Woodster to do. I apologize.

I am trying my best to be respectful and civil, and leave out the personal commentary. Please join me in this effort.

Thank you,

Craig

RXDOC

Wow, 11 pages of claims, counter claims, graphs and counter graphs. It's been just one huge pissing contest.
The duel of the keyboard racers. against

Can't we all just get along?

shiv@vishnu

Not sure if it has been brought up yet, but what kind of fan/cooling arrangement did they have at the dyno facility? If they are not properly set-up for testing Porsche turbos with rear and side mounted intercoolers, it's unlikely that the car is going to see realistic charge and inlet temps. No slam intended to them as our own dyno facility had to go through some unexpected reworking when we began mapping/testing Porsche Turbos.

-shiv

Jean

Craig, agreed.
Only trying to keep information on this board factual, no hostility intended against anyone.
Cheers,
Jean

Woodster

Craig, Jean, everyone, I promise to be more civil in regards to others'
claims and marketing practices. Craig, you obviously have a very, very fast
car which in and of itself makes others interested in it's actual performance.
I will plan to do an AX-22 60-130 run next spring (it is -2 degrees below
zero here today), when they roads clear up and warm up.
Craig, I have heard you have spent a fortune on your motor
and have tried Kevin's turbos, and now have gone to some other turbos, and even have some special
"BETA" program (similar to what EVOMS would use at
a shootout and not anything similar to what the general
public will get). If I were you, I would want some definitive
performance measurement (AX-22) for my own piece of mine, so I have more to go on than a "seat of pants dyno".
I will also be
traveling to Germany, Belgium, and possibly England with a fellow Rennlister
in the spring who's car is in Pfaffenhausen right now, I am sure it will be very informative because last time I was there, I did not have the same interest levels as I do today
which is a direct result of Rennlist and guys like Toby, Jean
and Tom H, who always seek the truth.