Does anyone have normal insurance that covers DEs?
03-12-2011, 10:32 PM
#91
Racer
If you are drive 20k miles a year vs. 3k miles a year, does it not stand to reason that you are more likely to be involved in a loss if your driving characteristics are to drive more miles than others a year?
If you drive on the street vs a race track at higher than normal speeds, are you not more likely to have an accident than someone going the speed limit on a residential street?
03-12-2011, 10:34 PM
#92
Racer
I called the number that USAA had given me for an insurance policy that they said covers DE track events. It was the Progressive Insurance company. I went through their whole process and got a quote for my GT3.
I asked about DE events and described them in detail. The rep checked with her manager and said they would cover DE events on tracks as long as there was no timing, competition etc. She said they encourage driver education! Of course, USAA told me that too about a year ago when I first enquired about this issue.
The quote for my GT3 individually was about 30% higher than what I pay with USAA for essentially the same policy. Since we only do a couple of DEs a year, it would actually be cheaper for us to stay with USAA and buy the PCA endorsed program when we need it. We have been with USAA for 20 years and it's a great company (other than not covering DEs!) so we will stick with them for now. If we ever start doing more DEs, or USAA dumps us because of all of the track questions I have been asking lately, I would consider going with Progressive. Right now we will mostly stick with autocrosses.
One issue is that she could not give me a written copy of a policy or exclusions until we went through the whole application process. I would still want to check the wording of the policy very carefully to really make sure DEs were allowed. I doubt an insurance sales rep would be very familiar with or forthcoming about all the details of the exclusions to a potential customer!
If anyone is more familiar with Progressive and their policy on DEs, please post the info.
I asked about DE events and described them in detail. The rep checked with her manager and said they would cover DE events on tracks as long as there was no timing, competition etc. She said they encourage driver education! Of course, USAA told me that too about a year ago when I first enquired about this issue.
The quote for my GT3 individually was about 30% higher than what I pay with USAA for essentially the same policy. Since we only do a couple of DEs a year, it would actually be cheaper for us to stay with USAA and buy the PCA endorsed program when we need it. We have been with USAA for 20 years and it's a great company (other than not covering DEs!) so we will stick with them for now. If we ever start doing more DEs, or USAA dumps us because of all of the track questions I have been asking lately, I would consider going with Progressive. Right now we will mostly stick with autocrosses.
One issue is that she could not give me a written copy of a policy or exclusions until we went through the whole application process. I would still want to check the wording of the policy very carefully to really make sure DEs were allowed. I doubt an insurance sales rep would be very familiar with or forthcoming about all the details of the exclusions to a potential customer!
If anyone is more familiar with Progressive and their policy on DEs, please post the info.
03-13-2011, 09:43 AM
#94
Drifting
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Your speeding ticket analogy also doesn’t correlate.
I speed, I get a ticket, I get convicted, the state reports it to my insurance carrier, my insurance rates go up. Yes, cause and effect.
However, if I wreck my car on track, and I don’t make a claim; I pay for it myself – how exactly is the insurance company at a loss, and why should they cancel my policy because of something I never expected them to cover? More importantly, how would they know I wrecked my car? Who reports that info? It’s a private track hosting a private event.
Does Progressive do this? Do they cancel policies for “behavior” even when no claim is made?
"The rep checked with her manager and said they would cover DE events on tracks as long as there was no timing, competition etc. "
vs.
"I am appointed as an Agent with Progressive and can tell you for sure that as of the last time I read the policy, you are SOL in CA!"
Talk is cheap, and there is plenty of talk in this thread.
My parting thought, as already posted by another, and its cliche at best, is use the right tool for the job - IMO, buy a policy that is designed for HPDE.
03-13-2011, 02:07 PM
#95
Racer
SH, I like what you wrote when you stated "use the right tool for the job - IMO, buy a policy that is designed for HPDE."
As for the rest, let me clarify what I wrote because if that is what you got from it, I didn't communicate it correctly.
I was speaking more from the position of someone who thinks that the insurance company will cover it. Fruthermore, the insurance companies face things some people don't even think about; fraud. It is huge in the US and insurance fraud, next to uninsured motorists claims and pointless law suits, are the reasons most people feel their rates are too high.
"how exactly is the insurance company at a loss, and why should they cancel my policy because of something I never expected them to cover?"
Remember, you may approach the situation from that stand point that you go to the track and what you do is on you. Well, good on you lad. However you have to remember that there are the few that just won't accept that responsibility and see their insurance policy as a savings plan that should pay for things it clearly was not designed to, so they my lie about how and where the damage too place in order to get the insurance company to pay for it.
Case in point. I saw a guy have an off at a track in CA and he hit a lower standing dirt barrier that jacked his pass side rear and rear end nicely. It was bad, but he could limp it home. I did't think much of it except his license plate was unique. Fast forward two weeks later. I was at a body shop I have used many times getting some wheels refinished and guess what car I saw there. I asked how bad the damage was and the shop said "The insurance appraiser said he would have his sheet to me today, but I would guess it will be about $17,000, or so." I asked what company it was with. After learning, I called the claims dept. because I knew people there. After finding who the appraiser was, I told him I saw the car and wanted to know how it was reported as to have happened. The guy reported that he was on a local mountain road and that a guy crossed the center divider and came at him head on, leaving him no choice but to swerve to the right (hitting the edge of the hillside to his right) and the guy took off. Long story short, he lied about how it happened and they were covering the claim. It happens more than you know.
So you see, behavior can sometimes lead to claims of opportunity; as I like to call them. Now you may not think that way and I applaude you for it. However, insurance companies no longer have the authority (not in CA anyway) to get to make those kinds of individual determinations. If they do, they are descriminating to some and in the legal world, they create an estoppel. More simply put, if they do it for you, they have to do it for everyone kind of thought process.
"More importantly, how would they know I wrecked my car? Who reports that info? It’s a private track hosting a private event".
If you go to a private event and there is no damage report made by you or your local police department, it is not reported to the State. Now if the track makes a cliam for their damages to their insurance company, it may show up as their insurance company will most likely post it in the claims history system and try to subrogate (collect) from you or your insurance company. If you spin, damage your car and there is nothing the track has to do but tow you off the track, my bet is nobody would know and you would not be dinged or cancelled.
"Does Progressive do this? Do they cancel policies for “behavior” even when no claim is made?"
No. However, progressive could cancel the policy if they think that they are possibly providing insurance for a race car. This is where a good agent makes the difference. People need to realize that their insurance agent can be a HUGE asset to them and help them weed through it all. If you agent doesn't understand this type of activity, change agents. If you are in CA, call me and I will help you.
Lastly, I agree that talk is cheap. I find it interesting that multiple calls can be made to a carrier and they give different answers to the same DE coverage question. This just goes to prove one thing, this area of coverage is forien to most people answering the phones there. One more thing to remember, is they are usually trained in what is available and the general concept of the coverages. They are not detailed in claims and policy interpretation. They answer broad general questions and don't commit to specific situations unless the claim if filed and they know all the circumstances; every single one that effects the coverage that you are asking them to confirm. My guess is that if they were told that you must wear a helmet, you will be on a race track and you will be reaching speeds of 100 mph or more, they will tell you there is no coverage. While Progressive may encourage driving eduction, they are thinking traffic school, car control clinics at lower speeds and services like Abel's driving school. They are not thinking of cars with roll cages and 6 pt harnesses where the car is pushed to it's limits by a novice driver.
Furthermore, the policy was not designed for something like this as most people in the industry see being on a race track as "racing." They see HPDE's as events were you get to go really fast (like a race or race car), you are sometimes inches from the other car going just as fast (like a race or race car), you are trying to go as fast as you can with other cars possibly in chase (like a race or race car) and the car is usually be pushed to it's perforance edge (like a race or race car). They think you are "racing" case. Sometimes HPDE's are like races, but most of the time it's not.
I hope this sheds a bit more light on what I meant and how the industry is in reality.
As for the rest, let me clarify what I wrote because if that is what you got from it, I didn't communicate it correctly.
I was speaking more from the position of someone who thinks that the insurance company will cover it. Fruthermore, the insurance companies face things some people don't even think about; fraud. It is huge in the US and insurance fraud, next to uninsured motorists claims and pointless law suits, are the reasons most people feel their rates are too high.
"how exactly is the insurance company at a loss, and why should they cancel my policy because of something I never expected them to cover?"
Remember, you may approach the situation from that stand point that you go to the track and what you do is on you. Well, good on you lad. However you have to remember that there are the few that just won't accept that responsibility and see their insurance policy as a savings plan that should pay for things it clearly was not designed to, so they my lie about how and where the damage too place in order to get the insurance company to pay for it.
Case in point. I saw a guy have an off at a track in CA and he hit a lower standing dirt barrier that jacked his pass side rear and rear end nicely. It was bad, but he could limp it home. I did't think much of it except his license plate was unique. Fast forward two weeks later. I was at a body shop I have used many times getting some wheels refinished and guess what car I saw there. I asked how bad the damage was and the shop said "The insurance appraiser said he would have his sheet to me today, but I would guess it will be about $17,000, or so." I asked what company it was with. After learning, I called the claims dept. because I knew people there. After finding who the appraiser was, I told him I saw the car and wanted to know how it was reported as to have happened. The guy reported that he was on a local mountain road and that a guy crossed the center divider and came at him head on, leaving him no choice but to swerve to the right (hitting the edge of the hillside to his right) and the guy took off. Long story short, he lied about how it happened and they were covering the claim. It happens more than you know.
So you see, behavior can sometimes lead to claims of opportunity; as I like to call them. Now you may not think that way and I applaude you for it. However, insurance companies no longer have the authority (not in CA anyway) to get to make those kinds of individual determinations. If they do, they are descriminating to some and in the legal world, they create an estoppel. More simply put, if they do it for you, they have to do it for everyone kind of thought process.
"More importantly, how would they know I wrecked my car? Who reports that info? It’s a private track hosting a private event".
If you go to a private event and there is no damage report made by you or your local police department, it is not reported to the State. Now if the track makes a cliam for their damages to their insurance company, it may show up as their insurance company will most likely post it in the claims history system and try to subrogate (collect) from you or your insurance company. If you spin, damage your car and there is nothing the track has to do but tow you off the track, my bet is nobody would know and you would not be dinged or cancelled.
"Does Progressive do this? Do they cancel policies for “behavior” even when no claim is made?"
No. However, progressive could cancel the policy if they think that they are possibly providing insurance for a race car. This is where a good agent makes the difference. People need to realize that their insurance agent can be a HUGE asset to them and help them weed through it all. If you agent doesn't understand this type of activity, change agents. If you are in CA, call me and I will help you.
Lastly, I agree that talk is cheap. I find it interesting that multiple calls can be made to a carrier and they give different answers to the same DE coverage question. This just goes to prove one thing, this area of coverage is forien to most people answering the phones there. One more thing to remember, is they are usually trained in what is available and the general concept of the coverages. They are not detailed in claims and policy interpretation. They answer broad general questions and don't commit to specific situations unless the claim if filed and they know all the circumstances; every single one that effects the coverage that you are asking them to confirm. My guess is that if they were told that you must wear a helmet, you will be on a race track and you will be reaching speeds of 100 mph or more, they will tell you there is no coverage. While Progressive may encourage driving eduction, they are thinking traffic school, car control clinics at lower speeds and services like Abel's driving school. They are not thinking of cars with roll cages and 6 pt harnesses where the car is pushed to it's limits by a novice driver.
Furthermore, the policy was not designed for something like this as most people in the industry see being on a race track as "racing." They see HPDE's as events were you get to go really fast (like a race or race car), you are sometimes inches from the other car going just as fast (like a race or race car), you are trying to go as fast as you can with other cars possibly in chase (like a race or race car) and the car is usually be pushed to it's perforance edge (like a race or race car). They think you are "racing" case. Sometimes HPDE's are like races, but most of the time it's not.
I hope this sheds a bit more light on what I meant and how the industry is in reality.
03-31-2011, 05:27 PM
#96
Racer
BREAKING NEWS!!!!
Ok guys and gals....here is the latest news on HPDE Insurance.
WSIB Insurance has discontinued it's program!!! That's right sports fans, they are NOT offering HPDE coverage any longer.
A source within WSIB confided that they have now gone through 2 programs like this and they have both had the plug pulled on them due to a 100% loss ratio.
The only two sources I have found are Lockton/affinity and www.ontrackins.com.
WSIB Insurance has discontinued it's program!!! That's right sports fans, they are NOT offering HPDE coverage any longer.
A source within WSIB confided that they have now gone through 2 programs like this and they have both had the plug pulled on them due to a 100% loss ratio.The only two sources I have found are Lockton/affinity and www.ontrackins.com.
03-31-2011, 05:45 PM
#98
Racer
Nope...that is par for the course due to the fact that once some drivers know they have coverage, they could care less about the red mist and just shunt the car saying "oh well..."
The problem is simply that the drivers could care less about the cars and their skills seem to fade when that happens.
This may be a surprise to some, but in the industry, this is par for the course with inexperienced track drivers. Hence the reason regular companies exclude the coverage.
The problem is simply that the drivers could care less about the cars and their skills seem to fade when that happens.
This may be a surprise to some, but in the industry, this is par for the course with inexperienced track drivers. Hence the reason regular companies exclude the coverage.
03-31-2011, 07:32 PM
#99
Nordschleife Master
In my case I actually forced myself to drive BETTER and take less risk when I was insured. I know it sounds odd but I refused to let myself drive with reckless abandon knowing somebody else would foot the bill. I think it was the fact that I really didn't want to know what it is like to hit a wall at triple digit speed.
03-31-2011, 11:45 PM
#101
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yes, I'm covered by MetLife in MA, as are several other Rennlisters, I believe. I have it in writing from them that they will cover DE on the track, provided it is not a racing event (no auto-X, time trials, or club racing).
08-17-2013, 01:07 PM
#102
1st Gear
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Well, I found that VERY hard to believe since I have seen two Geico claims denied for that same reason. So I took a little time and called Geico. I talked with both a local agent (Dennis @ 909-874-3426 in Ontario, CA) and the national service center line Terry at( 800-841-3000). I asked questions about 3 states...CA, NV and AZ. Dennis was clueless. He found out it wasn't a sales call and wanted to blow me off faster than Pam Anderson took care of Tommy Lee. Terry, on the other hand, was actually very nice and VERY helpful. He took the time to find the answer to the question(s) I asked him. In short, Geico now has verbiage in their policy that states they exclude coverage "while a motor vehicle is being operated within a pre-arranged or competitive event OR any track or other facility that may be used for such contests or events."
08-17-2013, 07:10 PM
#103
Instructor
http://locktonmotorsports.com/product/track-insurance/
Note that HPDE is not "racing", and I doubt you'll find anyone who provides on-track insurance for anything involving actual competition.
-Larry
08-19-2013, 06:12 PM
#104
I used to use Lockton for my GT3 but since they went to a 10% deductible I switched to ontrackinsurance.com since they go with agreed value and the same 10% deductible. Fortunately no claims so far...
